No boy stands next to each others permutation problem












6












$begingroup$


The question is:




Find the number of ways that 5 boys and 6 girls can stand in a row if no boy stands next to another boy




In which the correct model would be:
$$square g square g square g square g square g square gsquare$$
Therefore:
$$6!cdot 7P5=1space 814space 400$$
However, I noticed that if you take one of the girls away (let's label her as $^a$), we have:
$$^asquare^ag^asquare^ag^asquare^ag^asquare^ag^asquare^ag^asquare^a$$
We see that no matter where girl$^a$ stands, the boys will still not stand next to each others:
$$5!cdot6P5cdot12=1space036space800$$
Update

Also, if we are to swap it around:
$$square b square b square b square b square b square$$
We now have:
$$5!cdot6!=86space 400 $$
What is wrong with the last two logic?

Thank you.






combinatorics permutations







share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$

















    6












    $begingroup$


    The question is:




    Find the number of ways that 5 boys and 6 girls can stand in a row if no boy stands next to another boy




    In which the correct model would be:
    $$square g square g square g square g square g square gsquare$$
    Therefore:
    $$6!cdot 7P5=1space 814space 400$$
    However, I noticed that if you take one of the girls away (let's label her as $^a$), we have:
    $$^asquare^ag^asquare^ag^asquare^ag^asquare^ag^asquare^ag^asquare^a$$
    We see that no matter where girl$^a$ stands, the boys will still not stand next to each others:
    $$5!cdot6P5cdot12=1space036space800$$
    Update

    Also, if we are to swap it around:
    $$square b square b square b square b square b square$$
    We now have:
    $$5!cdot6!=86space 400 $$
    What is wrong with the last two logic?

    Thank you.






    combinatorics permutations







    share|cite|improve this question











    $endgroup$















      6












      6








      6





      $begingroup$


      The question is:




      Find the number of ways that 5 boys and 6 girls can stand in a row if no boy stands next to another boy




      In which the correct model would be:
      $$square g square g square g square g square g square gsquare$$
      Therefore:
      $$6!cdot 7P5=1space 814space 400$$
      However, I noticed that if you take one of the girls away (let's label her as $^a$), we have:
      $$^asquare^ag^asquare^ag^asquare^ag^asquare^ag^asquare^ag^asquare^a$$
      We see that no matter where girl$^a$ stands, the boys will still not stand next to each others:
      $$5!cdot6P5cdot12=1space036space800$$
      Update

      Also, if we are to swap it around:
      $$square b square b square b square b square b square$$
      We now have:
      $$5!cdot6!=86space 400 $$
      What is wrong with the last two logic?

      Thank you.






      combinatorics permutations







      share|cite|improve this question











      $endgroup$




      The question is:




      Find the number of ways that 5 boys and 6 girls can stand in a row if no boy stands next to another boy




      In which the correct model would be:
      $$square g square g square g square g square g square gsquare$$
      Therefore:
      $$6!cdot 7P5=1space 814space 400$$
      However, I noticed that if you take one of the girls away (let's label her as $^a$), we have:
      $$^asquare^ag^asquare^ag^asquare^ag^asquare^ag^asquare^ag^asquare^a$$
      We see that no matter where girl$^a$ stands, the boys will still not stand next to each others:
      $$5!cdot6P5cdot12=1space036space800$$
      Update

      Also, if we are to swap it around:
      $$square b square b square b square b square b square$$
      We now have:
      $$5!cdot6!=86space 400 $$
      What is wrong with the last two logic?

      Thank you.






      combinatorics permutations




      combinatorics permutations






      share|cite|improve this question















      share|cite|improve this question













      share|cite|improve this question




      share|cite|improve this question








      edited 13 mins ago







      Huy Tran Van

















      asked 2 hours ago









      Huy Tran VanHuy Tran Van

      314




      314






















          3 Answers
          3






          active

          oldest

          votes


















          3












          $begingroup$

          Your first computation is correct.



          The latter two computations undercount because they start off by taking one of the girls away. Let's say they always take girl #1 away.



          Now if we number the girls, those solutions can contain as an example $1 2 b 3 b 4 b 5 b 6b$. But they can not contain $1b2b34b5b6b$. We've lost the ability to have two girls next to eachother without involving girl #1.






          share|cite|improve this answer









          $endgroup$













          • $begingroup$
            Now, I know the last two undercount somehow but I can't see why '$1b2b3b4b5b6b$' is not possible in the second case?
            $endgroup$
            – Huy Tran Van
            1 hour ago












          • $begingroup$
            @HuyTranVan You misread. I said $1b2b34b5b6b$. There is no $b$ between $3$ and $4$.
            $endgroup$
            – orlp
            54 mins ago












          • $begingroup$
            I wanted to know why $12b3b4b5b6b$ is possible but then $1b2b34b5b6b$ (no b between 3 and 4) is not counted in the second case. According to you when one of the girls stands next to another, the question changed?
            $endgroup$
            – Huy Tran Van
            47 mins ago





















          2












          $begingroup$

          In the last one you're obviously leaving some out, which could be gotten by swapping some of bg combinations in either sum.



          In the second, also, you're not counting certain arrangements, which could be gotten by, again, swapping at least some bg combinations.



          The right one is the first.






          share|cite|improve this answer











          $endgroup$





















            -1












            $begingroup$

            You are on the right track with thinking that there are 7 possible slots with 5 boys to be arranged into those slots. This is a combination problem with can be treated as a 7 choose 5 or a $7 choose 5$.

            A $7 choose 5$ is calculated as
            $$
            frac{7!}{5!*(7-5)!} = 21
            $$
            Therefore there are 21 combinations in which the boys could be arranged.



            I have also used an excel spreadsheet to show the possible ways that they could be arranged which ends up equaling 21.



            Picture of how the boys and girls could be arranged in 21 combinations






            share|cite|improve this answer








            New contributor




            Tucktuckgoose is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
            Check out our Code of Conduct.






            $endgroup$













            • $begingroup$
              My answer is predicated that this is a combination problem, not a permutation problem. As they are described as boys and girls, they are likely interchangeable and this is a combination. If the question was how many ways can Tom, Dick, Harry, Sam, and Bob be arranged, that would be a different question with a much larger answer.
              $endgroup$
              – Tucktuckgoose
              1 hour ago











            Your Answer





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            3 Answers
            3






            active

            oldest

            votes








            3 Answers
            3






            active

            oldest

            votes









            active

            oldest

            votes






            active

            oldest

            votes









            3












            $begingroup$

            Your first computation is correct.



            The latter two computations undercount because they start off by taking one of the girls away. Let's say they always take girl #1 away.



            Now if we number the girls, those solutions can contain as an example $1 2 b 3 b 4 b 5 b 6b$. But they can not contain $1b2b34b5b6b$. We've lost the ability to have two girls next to eachother without involving girl #1.






            share|cite|improve this answer









            $endgroup$













            • $begingroup$
              Now, I know the last two undercount somehow but I can't see why '$1b2b3b4b5b6b$' is not possible in the second case?
              $endgroup$
              – Huy Tran Van
              1 hour ago












            • $begingroup$
              @HuyTranVan You misread. I said $1b2b34b5b6b$. There is no $b$ between $3$ and $4$.
              $endgroup$
              – orlp
              54 mins ago












            • $begingroup$
              I wanted to know why $12b3b4b5b6b$ is possible but then $1b2b34b5b6b$ (no b between 3 and 4) is not counted in the second case. According to you when one of the girls stands next to another, the question changed?
              $endgroup$
              – Huy Tran Van
              47 mins ago


















            3












            $begingroup$

            Your first computation is correct.



            The latter two computations undercount because they start off by taking one of the girls away. Let's say they always take girl #1 away.



            Now if we number the girls, those solutions can contain as an example $1 2 b 3 b 4 b 5 b 6b$. But they can not contain $1b2b34b5b6b$. We've lost the ability to have two girls next to eachother without involving girl #1.






            share|cite|improve this answer









            $endgroup$













            • $begingroup$
              Now, I know the last two undercount somehow but I can't see why '$1b2b3b4b5b6b$' is not possible in the second case?
              $endgroup$
              – Huy Tran Van
              1 hour ago












            • $begingroup$
              @HuyTranVan You misread. I said $1b2b34b5b6b$. There is no $b$ between $3$ and $4$.
              $endgroup$
              – orlp
              54 mins ago












            • $begingroup$
              I wanted to know why $12b3b4b5b6b$ is possible but then $1b2b34b5b6b$ (no b between 3 and 4) is not counted in the second case. According to you when one of the girls stands next to another, the question changed?
              $endgroup$
              – Huy Tran Van
              47 mins ago
















            3












            3








            3





            $begingroup$

            Your first computation is correct.



            The latter two computations undercount because they start off by taking one of the girls away. Let's say they always take girl #1 away.



            Now if we number the girls, those solutions can contain as an example $1 2 b 3 b 4 b 5 b 6b$. But they can not contain $1b2b34b5b6b$. We've lost the ability to have two girls next to eachother without involving girl #1.






            share|cite|improve this answer









            $endgroup$



            Your first computation is correct.



            The latter two computations undercount because they start off by taking one of the girls away. Let's say they always take girl #1 away.



            Now if we number the girls, those solutions can contain as an example $1 2 b 3 b 4 b 5 b 6b$. But they can not contain $1b2b34b5b6b$. We've lost the ability to have two girls next to eachother without involving girl #1.







            share|cite|improve this answer












            share|cite|improve this answer



            share|cite|improve this answer










            answered 1 hour ago









            orlporlp

            7,4211330




            7,4211330












            • $begingroup$
              Now, I know the last two undercount somehow but I can't see why '$1b2b3b4b5b6b$' is not possible in the second case?
              $endgroup$
              – Huy Tran Van
              1 hour ago












            • $begingroup$
              @HuyTranVan You misread. I said $1b2b34b5b6b$. There is no $b$ between $3$ and $4$.
              $endgroup$
              – orlp
              54 mins ago












            • $begingroup$
              I wanted to know why $12b3b4b5b6b$ is possible but then $1b2b34b5b6b$ (no b between 3 and 4) is not counted in the second case. According to you when one of the girls stands next to another, the question changed?
              $endgroup$
              – Huy Tran Van
              47 mins ago




















            • $begingroup$
              Now, I know the last two undercount somehow but I can't see why '$1b2b3b4b5b6b$' is not possible in the second case?
              $endgroup$
              – Huy Tran Van
              1 hour ago












            • $begingroup$
              @HuyTranVan You misread. I said $1b2b34b5b6b$. There is no $b$ between $3$ and $4$.
              $endgroup$
              – orlp
              54 mins ago












            • $begingroup$
              I wanted to know why $12b3b4b5b6b$ is possible but then $1b2b34b5b6b$ (no b between 3 and 4) is not counted in the second case. According to you when one of the girls stands next to another, the question changed?
              $endgroup$
              – Huy Tran Van
              47 mins ago


















            $begingroup$
            Now, I know the last two undercount somehow but I can't see why '$1b2b3b4b5b6b$' is not possible in the second case?
            $endgroup$
            – Huy Tran Van
            1 hour ago






            $begingroup$
            Now, I know the last two undercount somehow but I can't see why '$1b2b3b4b5b6b$' is not possible in the second case?
            $endgroup$
            – Huy Tran Van
            1 hour ago














            $begingroup$
            @HuyTranVan You misread. I said $1b2b34b5b6b$. There is no $b$ between $3$ and $4$.
            $endgroup$
            – orlp
            54 mins ago






            $begingroup$
            @HuyTranVan You misread. I said $1b2b34b5b6b$. There is no $b$ between $3$ and $4$.
            $endgroup$
            – orlp
            54 mins ago














            $begingroup$
            I wanted to know why $12b3b4b5b6b$ is possible but then $1b2b34b5b6b$ (no b between 3 and 4) is not counted in the second case. According to you when one of the girls stands next to another, the question changed?
            $endgroup$
            – Huy Tran Van
            47 mins ago






            $begingroup$
            I wanted to know why $12b3b4b5b6b$ is possible but then $1b2b34b5b6b$ (no b between 3 and 4) is not counted in the second case. According to you when one of the girls stands next to another, the question changed?
            $endgroup$
            – Huy Tran Van
            47 mins ago













            2












            $begingroup$

            In the last one you're obviously leaving some out, which could be gotten by swapping some of bg combinations in either sum.



            In the second, also, you're not counting certain arrangements, which could be gotten by, again, swapping at least some bg combinations.



            The right one is the first.






            share|cite|improve this answer











            $endgroup$


















              2












              $begingroup$

              In the last one you're obviously leaving some out, which could be gotten by swapping some of bg combinations in either sum.



              In the second, also, you're not counting certain arrangements, which could be gotten by, again, swapping at least some bg combinations.



              The right one is the first.






              share|cite|improve this answer











              $endgroup$
















                2












                2








                2





                $begingroup$

                In the last one you're obviously leaving some out, which could be gotten by swapping some of bg combinations in either sum.



                In the second, also, you're not counting certain arrangements, which could be gotten by, again, swapping at least some bg combinations.



                The right one is the first.






                share|cite|improve this answer











                $endgroup$



                In the last one you're obviously leaving some out, which could be gotten by swapping some of bg combinations in either sum.



                In the second, also, you're not counting certain arrangements, which could be gotten by, again, swapping at least some bg combinations.



                The right one is the first.







                share|cite|improve this answer














                share|cite|improve this answer



                share|cite|improve this answer








                edited 1 hour ago

























                answered 1 hour ago









                Chris CusterChris Custer

                11.5k3824




                11.5k3824























                    -1












                    $begingroup$

                    You are on the right track with thinking that there are 7 possible slots with 5 boys to be arranged into those slots. This is a combination problem with can be treated as a 7 choose 5 or a $7 choose 5$.

                    A $7 choose 5$ is calculated as
                    $$
                    frac{7!}{5!*(7-5)!} = 21
                    $$
                    Therefore there are 21 combinations in which the boys could be arranged.



                    I have also used an excel spreadsheet to show the possible ways that they could be arranged which ends up equaling 21.



                    Picture of how the boys and girls could be arranged in 21 combinations






                    share|cite|improve this answer








                    New contributor




                    Tucktuckgoose is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                    Check out our Code of Conduct.






                    $endgroup$













                    • $begingroup$
                      My answer is predicated that this is a combination problem, not a permutation problem. As they are described as boys and girls, they are likely interchangeable and this is a combination. If the question was how many ways can Tom, Dick, Harry, Sam, and Bob be arranged, that would be a different question with a much larger answer.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Tucktuckgoose
                      1 hour ago
















                    -1












                    $begingroup$

                    You are on the right track with thinking that there are 7 possible slots with 5 boys to be arranged into those slots. This is a combination problem with can be treated as a 7 choose 5 or a $7 choose 5$.

                    A $7 choose 5$ is calculated as
                    $$
                    frac{7!}{5!*(7-5)!} = 21
                    $$
                    Therefore there are 21 combinations in which the boys could be arranged.



                    I have also used an excel spreadsheet to show the possible ways that they could be arranged which ends up equaling 21.



                    Picture of how the boys and girls could be arranged in 21 combinations






                    share|cite|improve this answer








                    New contributor




                    Tucktuckgoose is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                    Check out our Code of Conduct.






                    $endgroup$













                    • $begingroup$
                      My answer is predicated that this is a combination problem, not a permutation problem. As they are described as boys and girls, they are likely interchangeable and this is a combination. If the question was how many ways can Tom, Dick, Harry, Sam, and Bob be arranged, that would be a different question with a much larger answer.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Tucktuckgoose
                      1 hour ago














                    -1












                    -1








                    -1





                    $begingroup$

                    You are on the right track with thinking that there are 7 possible slots with 5 boys to be arranged into those slots. This is a combination problem with can be treated as a 7 choose 5 or a $7 choose 5$.

                    A $7 choose 5$ is calculated as
                    $$
                    frac{7!}{5!*(7-5)!} = 21
                    $$
                    Therefore there are 21 combinations in which the boys could be arranged.



                    I have also used an excel spreadsheet to show the possible ways that they could be arranged which ends up equaling 21.



                    Picture of how the boys and girls could be arranged in 21 combinations






                    share|cite|improve this answer








                    New contributor




                    Tucktuckgoose is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                    Check out our Code of Conduct.






                    $endgroup$



                    You are on the right track with thinking that there are 7 possible slots with 5 boys to be arranged into those slots. This is a combination problem with can be treated as a 7 choose 5 or a $7 choose 5$.

                    A $7 choose 5$ is calculated as
                    $$
                    frac{7!}{5!*(7-5)!} = 21
                    $$
                    Therefore there are 21 combinations in which the boys could be arranged.



                    I have also used an excel spreadsheet to show the possible ways that they could be arranged which ends up equaling 21.



                    Picture of how the boys and girls could be arranged in 21 combinations







                    share|cite|improve this answer








                    New contributor




                    Tucktuckgoose is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                    Check out our Code of Conduct.









                    share|cite|improve this answer



                    share|cite|improve this answer






                    New contributor




                    Tucktuckgoose is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                    Check out our Code of Conduct.









                    answered 1 hour ago









                    TucktuckgooseTucktuckgoose

                    11




                    11




                    New contributor




                    Tucktuckgoose is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                    Check out our Code of Conduct.





                    New contributor





                    Tucktuckgoose is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                    Check out our Code of Conduct.






                    Tucktuckgoose is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                    Check out our Code of Conduct.












                    • $begingroup$
                      My answer is predicated that this is a combination problem, not a permutation problem. As they are described as boys and girls, they are likely interchangeable and this is a combination. If the question was how many ways can Tom, Dick, Harry, Sam, and Bob be arranged, that would be a different question with a much larger answer.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Tucktuckgoose
                      1 hour ago


















                    • $begingroup$
                      My answer is predicated that this is a combination problem, not a permutation problem. As they are described as boys and girls, they are likely interchangeable and this is a combination. If the question was how many ways can Tom, Dick, Harry, Sam, and Bob be arranged, that would be a different question with a much larger answer.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Tucktuckgoose
                      1 hour ago
















                    $begingroup$
                    My answer is predicated that this is a combination problem, not a permutation problem. As they are described as boys and girls, they are likely interchangeable and this is a combination. If the question was how many ways can Tom, Dick, Harry, Sam, and Bob be arranged, that would be a different question with a much larger answer.
                    $endgroup$
                    – Tucktuckgoose
                    1 hour ago




                    $begingroup$
                    My answer is predicated that this is a combination problem, not a permutation problem. As they are described as boys and girls, they are likely interchangeable and this is a combination. If the question was how many ways can Tom, Dick, Harry, Sam, and Bob be arranged, that would be a different question with a much larger answer.
                    $endgroup$
                    – Tucktuckgoose
                    1 hour ago


















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