Can an uncountable group have a countable number of subgroups?
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Can an uncountable group have only a countable number of subgroups?
Please give examples if any exist!
Edit: I want a group having uncountable cardinality but having a countable number of subgroups.
By countable number of subgroups, I mean the collection of all subgroups of a group is countable.
group-theory examples-counterexamples infinite-groups
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
favorite
Can an uncountable group have only a countable number of subgroups?
Please give examples if any exist!
Edit: I want a group having uncountable cardinality but having a countable number of subgroups.
By countable number of subgroups, I mean the collection of all subgroups of a group is countable.
group-theory examples-counterexamples infinite-groups
1
I'm frankly a bit surprised at the negative reaction to this question.
– Noah Schweber
1 hour ago
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
favorite
up vote
2
down vote
favorite
Can an uncountable group have only a countable number of subgroups?
Please give examples if any exist!
Edit: I want a group having uncountable cardinality but having a countable number of subgroups.
By countable number of subgroups, I mean the collection of all subgroups of a group is countable.
group-theory examples-counterexamples infinite-groups
Can an uncountable group have only a countable number of subgroups?
Please give examples if any exist!
Edit: I want a group having uncountable cardinality but having a countable number of subgroups.
By countable number of subgroups, I mean the collection of all subgroups of a group is countable.
group-theory examples-counterexamples infinite-groups
group-theory examples-counterexamples infinite-groups
edited 1 hour ago
Shaun
8,074113577
8,074113577
asked 1 hour ago
Cloud JR
731416
731416
1
I'm frankly a bit surprised at the negative reaction to this question.
– Noah Schweber
1 hour ago
add a comment |
1
I'm frankly a bit surprised at the negative reaction to this question.
– Noah Schweber
1 hour ago
1
1
I'm frankly a bit surprised at the negative reaction to this question.
– Noah Schweber
1 hour ago
I'm frankly a bit surprised at the negative reaction to this question.
– Noah Schweber
1 hour ago
add a comment |
2 Answers
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No. Suppose $G$ is an uncountable group. Every element $g$ of $G$ belongs to a countable subgroup of $G$, namely the cyclic subgroup $langle grangle$. Thus $G$ is the union of all of its countable subgroups. Since a countable union of countable sets is countable, $G$ must have uncountably many countable subgroups.
add a comment |
up vote
4
down vote
EDIT: bof's answer is the right one, but the construction below - while completely pointless overkill - is still an example of a useful technique, so I'm leaving this answer up.
No, this cannot happen.
Suppose $G$ is a group and $A$ is a countable subset of $G$. Then the closure of $A$ under the group operations ($*$ and $^{-1}$) of $G$, $langle Arangle$, is again countable - this is a good exercise (HINT: the set of finite strings from a countable set is countable).
With this in hand, if $G$ is an uncountable group we can build an uncountable chain of subgroups of $G$, as follows:
We will define a countable subgroup $A_delta$ for every countable ordinal $delta$. There are uncountably many of these, so if we can do this we'll be done.
We let $A_0$ be the trivial subgroup.
Having defined $A_eta$ for every $eta<delta$, we let $a$ be some element of $G$ not in $bigcup_{eta<delta}A_eta$ - which exists, since this is a countable union of countable subgroups, and $G$ is uncountable - and let $A_delta=langle (bigcup_{eta<delta}A_eta)cup{a}rangle$.
It's easy to prove by transfinite induction that $(A_delta)_{delta<omega_1}$ is a strictly increasing chain of countable subgroups of $G$, so we're done.
Both answers use the axiom of choice. In ZF, can there be an uncountable group with only a countable number of subgroups?
– bof
54 mins ago
add a comment |
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
8
down vote
No. Suppose $G$ is an uncountable group. Every element $g$ of $G$ belongs to a countable subgroup of $G$, namely the cyclic subgroup $langle grangle$. Thus $G$ is the union of all of its countable subgroups. Since a countable union of countable sets is countable, $G$ must have uncountably many countable subgroups.
add a comment |
up vote
8
down vote
No. Suppose $G$ is an uncountable group. Every element $g$ of $G$ belongs to a countable subgroup of $G$, namely the cyclic subgroup $langle grangle$. Thus $G$ is the union of all of its countable subgroups. Since a countable union of countable sets is countable, $G$ must have uncountably many countable subgroups.
add a comment |
up vote
8
down vote
up vote
8
down vote
No. Suppose $G$ is an uncountable group. Every element $g$ of $G$ belongs to a countable subgroup of $G$, namely the cyclic subgroup $langle grangle$. Thus $G$ is the union of all of its countable subgroups. Since a countable union of countable sets is countable, $G$ must have uncountably many countable subgroups.
No. Suppose $G$ is an uncountable group. Every element $g$ of $G$ belongs to a countable subgroup of $G$, namely the cyclic subgroup $langle grangle$. Thus $G$ is the union of all of its countable subgroups. Since a countable union of countable sets is countable, $G$ must have uncountably many countable subgroups.
answered 1 hour ago
bof
49.5k455118
49.5k455118
add a comment |
add a comment |
up vote
4
down vote
EDIT: bof's answer is the right one, but the construction below - while completely pointless overkill - is still an example of a useful technique, so I'm leaving this answer up.
No, this cannot happen.
Suppose $G$ is a group and $A$ is a countable subset of $G$. Then the closure of $A$ under the group operations ($*$ and $^{-1}$) of $G$, $langle Arangle$, is again countable - this is a good exercise (HINT: the set of finite strings from a countable set is countable).
With this in hand, if $G$ is an uncountable group we can build an uncountable chain of subgroups of $G$, as follows:
We will define a countable subgroup $A_delta$ for every countable ordinal $delta$. There are uncountably many of these, so if we can do this we'll be done.
We let $A_0$ be the trivial subgroup.
Having defined $A_eta$ for every $eta<delta$, we let $a$ be some element of $G$ not in $bigcup_{eta<delta}A_eta$ - which exists, since this is a countable union of countable subgroups, and $G$ is uncountable - and let $A_delta=langle (bigcup_{eta<delta}A_eta)cup{a}rangle$.
It's easy to prove by transfinite induction that $(A_delta)_{delta<omega_1}$ is a strictly increasing chain of countable subgroups of $G$, so we're done.
Both answers use the axiom of choice. In ZF, can there be an uncountable group with only a countable number of subgroups?
– bof
54 mins ago
add a comment |
up vote
4
down vote
EDIT: bof's answer is the right one, but the construction below - while completely pointless overkill - is still an example of a useful technique, so I'm leaving this answer up.
No, this cannot happen.
Suppose $G$ is a group and $A$ is a countable subset of $G$. Then the closure of $A$ under the group operations ($*$ and $^{-1}$) of $G$, $langle Arangle$, is again countable - this is a good exercise (HINT: the set of finite strings from a countable set is countable).
With this in hand, if $G$ is an uncountable group we can build an uncountable chain of subgroups of $G$, as follows:
We will define a countable subgroup $A_delta$ for every countable ordinal $delta$. There are uncountably many of these, so if we can do this we'll be done.
We let $A_0$ be the trivial subgroup.
Having defined $A_eta$ for every $eta<delta$, we let $a$ be some element of $G$ not in $bigcup_{eta<delta}A_eta$ - which exists, since this is a countable union of countable subgroups, and $G$ is uncountable - and let $A_delta=langle (bigcup_{eta<delta}A_eta)cup{a}rangle$.
It's easy to prove by transfinite induction that $(A_delta)_{delta<omega_1}$ is a strictly increasing chain of countable subgroups of $G$, so we're done.
Both answers use the axiom of choice. In ZF, can there be an uncountable group with only a countable number of subgroups?
– bof
54 mins ago
add a comment |
up vote
4
down vote
up vote
4
down vote
EDIT: bof's answer is the right one, but the construction below - while completely pointless overkill - is still an example of a useful technique, so I'm leaving this answer up.
No, this cannot happen.
Suppose $G$ is a group and $A$ is a countable subset of $G$. Then the closure of $A$ under the group operations ($*$ and $^{-1}$) of $G$, $langle Arangle$, is again countable - this is a good exercise (HINT: the set of finite strings from a countable set is countable).
With this in hand, if $G$ is an uncountable group we can build an uncountable chain of subgroups of $G$, as follows:
We will define a countable subgroup $A_delta$ for every countable ordinal $delta$. There are uncountably many of these, so if we can do this we'll be done.
We let $A_0$ be the trivial subgroup.
Having defined $A_eta$ for every $eta<delta$, we let $a$ be some element of $G$ not in $bigcup_{eta<delta}A_eta$ - which exists, since this is a countable union of countable subgroups, and $G$ is uncountable - and let $A_delta=langle (bigcup_{eta<delta}A_eta)cup{a}rangle$.
It's easy to prove by transfinite induction that $(A_delta)_{delta<omega_1}$ is a strictly increasing chain of countable subgroups of $G$, so we're done.
EDIT: bof's answer is the right one, but the construction below - while completely pointless overkill - is still an example of a useful technique, so I'm leaving this answer up.
No, this cannot happen.
Suppose $G$ is a group and $A$ is a countable subset of $G$. Then the closure of $A$ under the group operations ($*$ and $^{-1}$) of $G$, $langle Arangle$, is again countable - this is a good exercise (HINT: the set of finite strings from a countable set is countable).
With this in hand, if $G$ is an uncountable group we can build an uncountable chain of subgroups of $G$, as follows:
We will define a countable subgroup $A_delta$ for every countable ordinal $delta$. There are uncountably many of these, so if we can do this we'll be done.
We let $A_0$ be the trivial subgroup.
Having defined $A_eta$ for every $eta<delta$, we let $a$ be some element of $G$ not in $bigcup_{eta<delta}A_eta$ - which exists, since this is a countable union of countable subgroups, and $G$ is uncountable - and let $A_delta=langle (bigcup_{eta<delta}A_eta)cup{a}rangle$.
It's easy to prove by transfinite induction that $(A_delta)_{delta<omega_1}$ is a strictly increasing chain of countable subgroups of $G$, so we're done.
answered 1 hour ago
Noah Schweber
119k10146278
119k10146278
Both answers use the axiom of choice. In ZF, can there be an uncountable group with only a countable number of subgroups?
– bof
54 mins ago
add a comment |
Both answers use the axiom of choice. In ZF, can there be an uncountable group with only a countable number of subgroups?
– bof
54 mins ago
Both answers use the axiom of choice. In ZF, can there be an uncountable group with only a countable number of subgroups?
– bof
54 mins ago
Both answers use the axiom of choice. In ZF, can there be an uncountable group with only a countable number of subgroups?
– bof
54 mins ago
add a comment |
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I'm frankly a bit surprised at the negative reaction to this question.
– Noah Schweber
1 hour ago