Do black holes have Arago spots?
I've been reading about Arago spots and the Aragoscope. Some fascinating concepts! Basically, due to wave diffraction, there is a bright spot in the centre of the shadow behind any circular object.
It strikes me that there are some similarities between a black hole and the disc used for the Arago spot experiments. Black holes (or their event horizons) are spherical, so should cast a circular shadow. Have there been any observations of bright spots in the centre of a black hole? If so, would these be useful for astronomy, like a supersized Aragoscope?
I have read that the shadowing object has to be very precisely circular, so I am not sure if a black hole is circular enough. Oblateness caused by rotation might distort the event horizon? There might also be issues with relativity around the fringes of the black hole. I don't have a clear concept of how gravitational lensing and Fresnel diffraction would work together.
black-holes diffraction
add a comment |
I've been reading about Arago spots and the Aragoscope. Some fascinating concepts! Basically, due to wave diffraction, there is a bright spot in the centre of the shadow behind any circular object.
It strikes me that there are some similarities between a black hole and the disc used for the Arago spot experiments. Black holes (or their event horizons) are spherical, so should cast a circular shadow. Have there been any observations of bright spots in the centre of a black hole? If so, would these be useful for astronomy, like a supersized Aragoscope?
I have read that the shadowing object has to be very precisely circular, so I am not sure if a black hole is circular enough. Oblateness caused by rotation might distort the event horizon? There might also be issues with relativity around the fringes of the black hole. I don't have a clear concept of how gravitational lensing and Fresnel diffraction would work together.
black-holes diffraction
add a comment |
I've been reading about Arago spots and the Aragoscope. Some fascinating concepts! Basically, due to wave diffraction, there is a bright spot in the centre of the shadow behind any circular object.
It strikes me that there are some similarities between a black hole and the disc used for the Arago spot experiments. Black holes (or their event horizons) are spherical, so should cast a circular shadow. Have there been any observations of bright spots in the centre of a black hole? If so, would these be useful for astronomy, like a supersized Aragoscope?
I have read that the shadowing object has to be very precisely circular, so I am not sure if a black hole is circular enough. Oblateness caused by rotation might distort the event horizon? There might also be issues with relativity around the fringes of the black hole. I don't have a clear concept of how gravitational lensing and Fresnel diffraction would work together.
black-holes diffraction
I've been reading about Arago spots and the Aragoscope. Some fascinating concepts! Basically, due to wave diffraction, there is a bright spot in the centre of the shadow behind any circular object.
It strikes me that there are some similarities between a black hole and the disc used for the Arago spot experiments. Black holes (or their event horizons) are spherical, so should cast a circular shadow. Have there been any observations of bright spots in the centre of a black hole? If so, would these be useful for astronomy, like a supersized Aragoscope?
I have read that the shadowing object has to be very precisely circular, so I am not sure if a black hole is circular enough. Oblateness caused by rotation might distort the event horizon? There might also be issues with relativity around the fringes of the black hole. I don't have a clear concept of how gravitational lensing and Fresnel diffraction would work together.
black-holes diffraction
black-holes diffraction
asked 2 hours ago
craqcraq
28818
28818
add a comment |
add a comment |
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
A proper analysis of this should treat light as an EM wave propagating in the curved spacetime background of the black hole. The papers
(1) "Wave optics and image formation in gravitational lensing," https://arxiv.org/abs/1207.6846
(2) "Viewing Black Holes by Waves," https://arxiv.org/abs/1303.5520
(3) "Wave Optics in Black Hole Spacetimes: Schwarzschild Case," https://arxiv.org/abs/1502.05468
present analyses for the case of a non-rotating (Schwarzschild) black hole. The papers (1) and (2) use numerical techniques (solving the wave equation for the massless scalar field using a finite difference method) and the paper (3) uses analytic techniques. The abstract of (2) says
We study scattering of waves by black holes. Solving a massless scalar field with a point source in the Schwarzschild spacetime, waves scattered by the black hole is obtained numerically. We then reconstruct images of the black hole from scattered wave data for specified scattering angles. For the forward and the backward directions, obtained wave optical images of black holes show rings that correspond to the black hole glories associated with existence of the unstable circular photon orbit in the Schwarzschild spacetime.
Figure 7 in (2) shows "Images of black holes reconstructed from scattering waves...", and here is an excerpt from that figure:
Notice the relatively bright spot in the center. To help interpret the picture, page 12 says:
In the geometric optics limit, images of black holes can be obtained by solving null geodesics. For the observer at $theta_0=0$, the primary null rays, which are deflected by the black hole but do not go around it, result in the Einstein ring. The secondary and the higher degrees of null rays that go around the black hole many times also form ring images with smaller angular radius compared to the Einstein ring.
This is called the glory effect. The words "Arago spot" are not used in the paper, but the words "Airy disk" are used. The papers (2) and (3) both say that an extension of this analysis to rotating (Kerr) black holes is underway, but I don't know if it has been published yet.
Great answer, thanks. That image definitely looks similar to an Arago spot, but perhaps a little dimmer. The authors seem to only be commenting on the rings - which are definitely interesting in themselves! This answer triggered me to look up Einstein Rings, and most of the examples had quite a large bright region in the middle. I guess the bright region is the accretion disc, which would hide the Arago spot in most cases?
– craq
1 hour ago
@craq I would guess that you're right, that something like a bright accretion disk would hide any diffraction-related spot that might otherwise be visible in the center. I didn't find any analyses that accounted for this.
– Dan Yand
1 hour ago
add a comment |
Your Answer
StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function () {
return StackExchange.using("mathjaxEditing", function () {
StackExchange.MarkdownEditor.creationCallbacks.add(function (editor, postfix) {
StackExchange.mathjaxEditing.prepareWmdForMathJax(editor, postfix, [["$", "$"], ["\\(","\\)"]]);
});
});
}, "mathjax-editing");
StackExchange.ready(function() {
var channelOptions = {
tags: "".split(" "),
id: "151"
};
initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);
StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
// Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
createEditor();
});
}
else {
createEditor();
}
});
function createEditor() {
StackExchange.prepareEditor({
heartbeatType: 'answer',
autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
convertImagesToLinks: false,
noModals: true,
showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
reputationToPostImages: null,
bindNavPrevention: true,
postfix: "",
imageUploader: {
brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
allowUrls: true
},
noCode: true, onDemand: true,
discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
});
}
});
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function () {
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fphysics.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f453001%2fdo-black-holes-have-arago-spots%23new-answer', 'question_page');
}
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
A proper analysis of this should treat light as an EM wave propagating in the curved spacetime background of the black hole. The papers
(1) "Wave optics and image formation in gravitational lensing," https://arxiv.org/abs/1207.6846
(2) "Viewing Black Holes by Waves," https://arxiv.org/abs/1303.5520
(3) "Wave Optics in Black Hole Spacetimes: Schwarzschild Case," https://arxiv.org/abs/1502.05468
present analyses for the case of a non-rotating (Schwarzschild) black hole. The papers (1) and (2) use numerical techniques (solving the wave equation for the massless scalar field using a finite difference method) and the paper (3) uses analytic techniques. The abstract of (2) says
We study scattering of waves by black holes. Solving a massless scalar field with a point source in the Schwarzschild spacetime, waves scattered by the black hole is obtained numerically. We then reconstruct images of the black hole from scattered wave data for specified scattering angles. For the forward and the backward directions, obtained wave optical images of black holes show rings that correspond to the black hole glories associated with existence of the unstable circular photon orbit in the Schwarzschild spacetime.
Figure 7 in (2) shows "Images of black holes reconstructed from scattering waves...", and here is an excerpt from that figure:
Notice the relatively bright spot in the center. To help interpret the picture, page 12 says:
In the geometric optics limit, images of black holes can be obtained by solving null geodesics. For the observer at $theta_0=0$, the primary null rays, which are deflected by the black hole but do not go around it, result in the Einstein ring. The secondary and the higher degrees of null rays that go around the black hole many times also form ring images with smaller angular radius compared to the Einstein ring.
This is called the glory effect. The words "Arago spot" are not used in the paper, but the words "Airy disk" are used. The papers (2) and (3) both say that an extension of this analysis to rotating (Kerr) black holes is underway, but I don't know if it has been published yet.
Great answer, thanks. That image definitely looks similar to an Arago spot, but perhaps a little dimmer. The authors seem to only be commenting on the rings - which are definitely interesting in themselves! This answer triggered me to look up Einstein Rings, and most of the examples had quite a large bright region in the middle. I guess the bright region is the accretion disc, which would hide the Arago spot in most cases?
– craq
1 hour ago
@craq I would guess that you're right, that something like a bright accretion disk would hide any diffraction-related spot that might otherwise be visible in the center. I didn't find any analyses that accounted for this.
– Dan Yand
1 hour ago
add a comment |
A proper analysis of this should treat light as an EM wave propagating in the curved spacetime background of the black hole. The papers
(1) "Wave optics and image formation in gravitational lensing," https://arxiv.org/abs/1207.6846
(2) "Viewing Black Holes by Waves," https://arxiv.org/abs/1303.5520
(3) "Wave Optics in Black Hole Spacetimes: Schwarzschild Case," https://arxiv.org/abs/1502.05468
present analyses for the case of a non-rotating (Schwarzschild) black hole. The papers (1) and (2) use numerical techniques (solving the wave equation for the massless scalar field using a finite difference method) and the paper (3) uses analytic techniques. The abstract of (2) says
We study scattering of waves by black holes. Solving a massless scalar field with a point source in the Schwarzschild spacetime, waves scattered by the black hole is obtained numerically. We then reconstruct images of the black hole from scattered wave data for specified scattering angles. For the forward and the backward directions, obtained wave optical images of black holes show rings that correspond to the black hole glories associated with existence of the unstable circular photon orbit in the Schwarzschild spacetime.
Figure 7 in (2) shows "Images of black holes reconstructed from scattering waves...", and here is an excerpt from that figure:
Notice the relatively bright spot in the center. To help interpret the picture, page 12 says:
In the geometric optics limit, images of black holes can be obtained by solving null geodesics. For the observer at $theta_0=0$, the primary null rays, which are deflected by the black hole but do not go around it, result in the Einstein ring. The secondary and the higher degrees of null rays that go around the black hole many times also form ring images with smaller angular radius compared to the Einstein ring.
This is called the glory effect. The words "Arago spot" are not used in the paper, but the words "Airy disk" are used. The papers (2) and (3) both say that an extension of this analysis to rotating (Kerr) black holes is underway, but I don't know if it has been published yet.
Great answer, thanks. That image definitely looks similar to an Arago spot, but perhaps a little dimmer. The authors seem to only be commenting on the rings - which are definitely interesting in themselves! This answer triggered me to look up Einstein Rings, and most of the examples had quite a large bright region in the middle. I guess the bright region is the accretion disc, which would hide the Arago spot in most cases?
– craq
1 hour ago
@craq I would guess that you're right, that something like a bright accretion disk would hide any diffraction-related spot that might otherwise be visible in the center. I didn't find any analyses that accounted for this.
– Dan Yand
1 hour ago
add a comment |
A proper analysis of this should treat light as an EM wave propagating in the curved spacetime background of the black hole. The papers
(1) "Wave optics and image formation in gravitational lensing," https://arxiv.org/abs/1207.6846
(2) "Viewing Black Holes by Waves," https://arxiv.org/abs/1303.5520
(3) "Wave Optics in Black Hole Spacetimes: Schwarzschild Case," https://arxiv.org/abs/1502.05468
present analyses for the case of a non-rotating (Schwarzschild) black hole. The papers (1) and (2) use numerical techniques (solving the wave equation for the massless scalar field using a finite difference method) and the paper (3) uses analytic techniques. The abstract of (2) says
We study scattering of waves by black holes. Solving a massless scalar field with a point source in the Schwarzschild spacetime, waves scattered by the black hole is obtained numerically. We then reconstruct images of the black hole from scattered wave data for specified scattering angles. For the forward and the backward directions, obtained wave optical images of black holes show rings that correspond to the black hole glories associated with existence of the unstable circular photon orbit in the Schwarzschild spacetime.
Figure 7 in (2) shows "Images of black holes reconstructed from scattering waves...", and here is an excerpt from that figure:
Notice the relatively bright spot in the center. To help interpret the picture, page 12 says:
In the geometric optics limit, images of black holes can be obtained by solving null geodesics. For the observer at $theta_0=0$, the primary null rays, which are deflected by the black hole but do not go around it, result in the Einstein ring. The secondary and the higher degrees of null rays that go around the black hole many times also form ring images with smaller angular radius compared to the Einstein ring.
This is called the glory effect. The words "Arago spot" are not used in the paper, but the words "Airy disk" are used. The papers (2) and (3) both say that an extension of this analysis to rotating (Kerr) black holes is underway, but I don't know if it has been published yet.
A proper analysis of this should treat light as an EM wave propagating in the curved spacetime background of the black hole. The papers
(1) "Wave optics and image formation in gravitational lensing," https://arxiv.org/abs/1207.6846
(2) "Viewing Black Holes by Waves," https://arxiv.org/abs/1303.5520
(3) "Wave Optics in Black Hole Spacetimes: Schwarzschild Case," https://arxiv.org/abs/1502.05468
present analyses for the case of a non-rotating (Schwarzschild) black hole. The papers (1) and (2) use numerical techniques (solving the wave equation for the massless scalar field using a finite difference method) and the paper (3) uses analytic techniques. The abstract of (2) says
We study scattering of waves by black holes. Solving a massless scalar field with a point source in the Schwarzschild spacetime, waves scattered by the black hole is obtained numerically. We then reconstruct images of the black hole from scattered wave data for specified scattering angles. For the forward and the backward directions, obtained wave optical images of black holes show rings that correspond to the black hole glories associated with existence of the unstable circular photon orbit in the Schwarzschild spacetime.
Figure 7 in (2) shows "Images of black holes reconstructed from scattering waves...", and here is an excerpt from that figure:
Notice the relatively bright spot in the center. To help interpret the picture, page 12 says:
In the geometric optics limit, images of black holes can be obtained by solving null geodesics. For the observer at $theta_0=0$, the primary null rays, which are deflected by the black hole but do not go around it, result in the Einstein ring. The secondary and the higher degrees of null rays that go around the black hole many times also form ring images with smaller angular radius compared to the Einstein ring.
This is called the glory effect. The words "Arago spot" are not used in the paper, but the words "Airy disk" are used. The papers (2) and (3) both say that an extension of this analysis to rotating (Kerr) black holes is underway, but I don't know if it has been published yet.
answered 1 hour ago
Dan YandDan Yand
7,7271931
7,7271931
Great answer, thanks. That image definitely looks similar to an Arago spot, but perhaps a little dimmer. The authors seem to only be commenting on the rings - which are definitely interesting in themselves! This answer triggered me to look up Einstein Rings, and most of the examples had quite a large bright region in the middle. I guess the bright region is the accretion disc, which would hide the Arago spot in most cases?
– craq
1 hour ago
@craq I would guess that you're right, that something like a bright accretion disk would hide any diffraction-related spot that might otherwise be visible in the center. I didn't find any analyses that accounted for this.
– Dan Yand
1 hour ago
add a comment |
Great answer, thanks. That image definitely looks similar to an Arago spot, but perhaps a little dimmer. The authors seem to only be commenting on the rings - which are definitely interesting in themselves! This answer triggered me to look up Einstein Rings, and most of the examples had quite a large bright region in the middle. I guess the bright region is the accretion disc, which would hide the Arago spot in most cases?
– craq
1 hour ago
@craq I would guess that you're right, that something like a bright accretion disk would hide any diffraction-related spot that might otherwise be visible in the center. I didn't find any analyses that accounted for this.
– Dan Yand
1 hour ago
Great answer, thanks. That image definitely looks similar to an Arago spot, but perhaps a little dimmer. The authors seem to only be commenting on the rings - which are definitely interesting in themselves! This answer triggered me to look up Einstein Rings, and most of the examples had quite a large bright region in the middle. I guess the bright region is the accretion disc, which would hide the Arago spot in most cases?
– craq
1 hour ago
Great answer, thanks. That image definitely looks similar to an Arago spot, but perhaps a little dimmer. The authors seem to only be commenting on the rings - which are definitely interesting in themselves! This answer triggered me to look up Einstein Rings, and most of the examples had quite a large bright region in the middle. I guess the bright region is the accretion disc, which would hide the Arago spot in most cases?
– craq
1 hour ago
@craq I would guess that you're right, that something like a bright accretion disk would hide any diffraction-related spot that might otherwise be visible in the center. I didn't find any analyses that accounted for this.
– Dan Yand
1 hour ago
@craq I would guess that you're right, that something like a bright accretion disk would hide any diffraction-related spot that might otherwise be visible in the center. I didn't find any analyses that accounted for this.
– Dan Yand
1 hour ago
add a comment |
Thanks for contributing an answer to Physics Stack Exchange!
- Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!
But avoid …
- Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.
- Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.
Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.
To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.
Some of your past answers have not been well-received, and you're in danger of being blocked from answering.
Please pay close attention to the following guidance:
- Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!
But avoid …
- Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.
- Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.
To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function () {
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fphysics.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f453001%2fdo-black-holes-have-arago-spots%23new-answer', 'question_page');
}
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown