Why don't commercial airplanes carry Earth observing instruments?
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Governments and private companies spend hundreds of millions of dollars to send Earth Observing satellites to capture imagery or scan the terrain with lasers or radars.
Meanwhile, commercial planes are constantly flying around the world, and even if they do not offer global coverage, they could still carry Earth observing instrumentation with almost no additional cost. I'm sure the data they could provide would have many scientific and commercial applications. In some cases they could be even better than satellite observations due to much shorter revisit times, less atmospheric influence and shorter round-trip times for laser and radar signals.
For example, some satellites like IceSat and IceSat-2, were designed to repeat laser altimetry observation over the same ground tracks over an over. With much interest in Greenland, the icefields in Yukon/Alaska and Antarctica. Again, in this case, commercial flight could provide very good coverage of the first two areas of interest at a fraction of the cost.
I'm a glaciologist working on the Patagonian icefields, where the persistent cloud cover renders useless most of the images captured by Earth Observing satellite. I'm evaluating the possibility to contact authorities and airlines to collaborate in a project to put instrumentation on the planes that overflight the icefields several times a day. However, I'm sure that I'm not the first with this idea of putting instruments on commercial planes. Thus, I'm surprised that no commercial airplane carry Earth observing instruments.
Therefore my question:
Is there any insurmountable technical or legal limitation to equip commercial airplanes with Earth Observing instruments?
regulations airplane
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up vote
29
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Governments and private companies spend hundreds of millions of dollars to send Earth Observing satellites to capture imagery or scan the terrain with lasers or radars.
Meanwhile, commercial planes are constantly flying around the world, and even if they do not offer global coverage, they could still carry Earth observing instrumentation with almost no additional cost. I'm sure the data they could provide would have many scientific and commercial applications. In some cases they could be even better than satellite observations due to much shorter revisit times, less atmospheric influence and shorter round-trip times for laser and radar signals.
For example, some satellites like IceSat and IceSat-2, were designed to repeat laser altimetry observation over the same ground tracks over an over. With much interest in Greenland, the icefields in Yukon/Alaska and Antarctica. Again, in this case, commercial flight could provide very good coverage of the first two areas of interest at a fraction of the cost.
I'm a glaciologist working on the Patagonian icefields, where the persistent cloud cover renders useless most of the images captured by Earth Observing satellite. I'm evaluating the possibility to contact authorities and airlines to collaborate in a project to put instrumentation on the planes that overflight the icefields several times a day. However, I'm sure that I'm not the first with this idea of putting instruments on commercial planes. Thus, I'm surprised that no commercial airplane carry Earth observing instruments.
Therefore my question:
Is there any insurmountable technical or legal limitation to equip commercial airplanes with Earth Observing instruments?
regulations airplane
16
I doubt the "no additional cost" thing. A system for ground observation has to be integrated into and powered by the plane's systems. Thus it is a maintenance relevant - and might even be flight security relevant - component (it has to be installed on the plane with a direct line of sight to the ground) that does induce extra cost for no benefit for the airline.
– Adwaenyth
18 hours ago
9
"persistent cloud cover" ... "instrumentation on the planes that overflight the icefields" This isn't an answer, but it's an issue you definitely would want to consider: Commercial airplanes typically fly above the clouds. So if there's a cloud cover, and you are working in the visual part of the spectrum, you are unlikely to get much better data from airplane-mounted equipment than from equipment in Earth orbit. (Though when conditions are favorable, you might be able to get higher resolution.)
– a CVn
18 hours ago
8
They probably already do carry such instruments, to help the pilots know when to to turn on the chemtrail generators. Of course everyone in the aviation industry is sworn to secrecy and will deny this.
– quiet flyer
12 hours ago
9
Operating a commercial service while also carrying equipment serving an intelligence gathering or espionage role would certainly introduce legal complications. Many destination countries would not generally be happy about foreign carriers spying on their country.
– J...
11 hours ago
3
@CamiloRada there are already dedicated companies that do such things. Most high resolution images on google earth are in fact from small planes and not satellites. Oil companies frequently contract such people for photography/lidar of interesting regions. Probably airline companies are not that interested in competing in a new industry all of the sudden.
– mbrig
7 hours ago
|
show 8 more comments
up vote
29
down vote
favorite
up vote
29
down vote
favorite
Governments and private companies spend hundreds of millions of dollars to send Earth Observing satellites to capture imagery or scan the terrain with lasers or radars.
Meanwhile, commercial planes are constantly flying around the world, and even if they do not offer global coverage, they could still carry Earth observing instrumentation with almost no additional cost. I'm sure the data they could provide would have many scientific and commercial applications. In some cases they could be even better than satellite observations due to much shorter revisit times, less atmospheric influence and shorter round-trip times for laser and radar signals.
For example, some satellites like IceSat and IceSat-2, were designed to repeat laser altimetry observation over the same ground tracks over an over. With much interest in Greenland, the icefields in Yukon/Alaska and Antarctica. Again, in this case, commercial flight could provide very good coverage of the first two areas of interest at a fraction of the cost.
I'm a glaciologist working on the Patagonian icefields, where the persistent cloud cover renders useless most of the images captured by Earth Observing satellite. I'm evaluating the possibility to contact authorities and airlines to collaborate in a project to put instrumentation on the planes that overflight the icefields several times a day. However, I'm sure that I'm not the first with this idea of putting instruments on commercial planes. Thus, I'm surprised that no commercial airplane carry Earth observing instruments.
Therefore my question:
Is there any insurmountable technical or legal limitation to equip commercial airplanes with Earth Observing instruments?
regulations airplane
Governments and private companies spend hundreds of millions of dollars to send Earth Observing satellites to capture imagery or scan the terrain with lasers or radars.
Meanwhile, commercial planes are constantly flying around the world, and even if they do not offer global coverage, they could still carry Earth observing instrumentation with almost no additional cost. I'm sure the data they could provide would have many scientific and commercial applications. In some cases they could be even better than satellite observations due to much shorter revisit times, less atmospheric influence and shorter round-trip times for laser and radar signals.
For example, some satellites like IceSat and IceSat-2, were designed to repeat laser altimetry observation over the same ground tracks over an over. With much interest in Greenland, the icefields in Yukon/Alaska and Antarctica. Again, in this case, commercial flight could provide very good coverage of the first two areas of interest at a fraction of the cost.
I'm a glaciologist working on the Patagonian icefields, where the persistent cloud cover renders useless most of the images captured by Earth Observing satellite. I'm evaluating the possibility to contact authorities and airlines to collaborate in a project to put instrumentation on the planes that overflight the icefields several times a day. However, I'm sure that I'm not the first with this idea of putting instruments on commercial planes. Thus, I'm surprised that no commercial airplane carry Earth observing instruments.
Therefore my question:
Is there any insurmountable technical or legal limitation to equip commercial airplanes with Earth Observing instruments?
regulations airplane
regulations airplane
edited 5 hours ago
user33375
1033
1033
asked 18 hours ago
Camilo Rada
616311
616311
16
I doubt the "no additional cost" thing. A system for ground observation has to be integrated into and powered by the plane's systems. Thus it is a maintenance relevant - and might even be flight security relevant - component (it has to be installed on the plane with a direct line of sight to the ground) that does induce extra cost for no benefit for the airline.
– Adwaenyth
18 hours ago
9
"persistent cloud cover" ... "instrumentation on the planes that overflight the icefields" This isn't an answer, but it's an issue you definitely would want to consider: Commercial airplanes typically fly above the clouds. So if there's a cloud cover, and you are working in the visual part of the spectrum, you are unlikely to get much better data from airplane-mounted equipment than from equipment in Earth orbit. (Though when conditions are favorable, you might be able to get higher resolution.)
– a CVn
18 hours ago
8
They probably already do carry such instruments, to help the pilots know when to to turn on the chemtrail generators. Of course everyone in the aviation industry is sworn to secrecy and will deny this.
– quiet flyer
12 hours ago
9
Operating a commercial service while also carrying equipment serving an intelligence gathering or espionage role would certainly introduce legal complications. Many destination countries would not generally be happy about foreign carriers spying on their country.
– J...
11 hours ago
3
@CamiloRada there are already dedicated companies that do such things. Most high resolution images on google earth are in fact from small planes and not satellites. Oil companies frequently contract such people for photography/lidar of interesting regions. Probably airline companies are not that interested in competing in a new industry all of the sudden.
– mbrig
7 hours ago
|
show 8 more comments
16
I doubt the "no additional cost" thing. A system for ground observation has to be integrated into and powered by the plane's systems. Thus it is a maintenance relevant - and might even be flight security relevant - component (it has to be installed on the plane with a direct line of sight to the ground) that does induce extra cost for no benefit for the airline.
– Adwaenyth
18 hours ago
9
"persistent cloud cover" ... "instrumentation on the planes that overflight the icefields" This isn't an answer, but it's an issue you definitely would want to consider: Commercial airplanes typically fly above the clouds. So if there's a cloud cover, and you are working in the visual part of the spectrum, you are unlikely to get much better data from airplane-mounted equipment than from equipment in Earth orbit. (Though when conditions are favorable, you might be able to get higher resolution.)
– a CVn
18 hours ago
8
They probably already do carry such instruments, to help the pilots know when to to turn on the chemtrail generators. Of course everyone in the aviation industry is sworn to secrecy and will deny this.
– quiet flyer
12 hours ago
9
Operating a commercial service while also carrying equipment serving an intelligence gathering or espionage role would certainly introduce legal complications. Many destination countries would not generally be happy about foreign carriers spying on their country.
– J...
11 hours ago
3
@CamiloRada there are already dedicated companies that do such things. Most high resolution images on google earth are in fact from small planes and not satellites. Oil companies frequently contract such people for photography/lidar of interesting regions. Probably airline companies are not that interested in competing in a new industry all of the sudden.
– mbrig
7 hours ago
16
16
I doubt the "no additional cost" thing. A system for ground observation has to be integrated into and powered by the plane's systems. Thus it is a maintenance relevant - and might even be flight security relevant - component (it has to be installed on the plane with a direct line of sight to the ground) that does induce extra cost for no benefit for the airline.
– Adwaenyth
18 hours ago
I doubt the "no additional cost" thing. A system for ground observation has to be integrated into and powered by the plane's systems. Thus it is a maintenance relevant - and might even be flight security relevant - component (it has to be installed on the plane with a direct line of sight to the ground) that does induce extra cost for no benefit for the airline.
– Adwaenyth
18 hours ago
9
9
"persistent cloud cover" ... "instrumentation on the planes that overflight the icefields" This isn't an answer, but it's an issue you definitely would want to consider: Commercial airplanes typically fly above the clouds. So if there's a cloud cover, and you are working in the visual part of the spectrum, you are unlikely to get much better data from airplane-mounted equipment than from equipment in Earth orbit. (Though when conditions are favorable, you might be able to get higher resolution.)
– a CVn
18 hours ago
"persistent cloud cover" ... "instrumentation on the planes that overflight the icefields" This isn't an answer, but it's an issue you definitely would want to consider: Commercial airplanes typically fly above the clouds. So if there's a cloud cover, and you are working in the visual part of the spectrum, you are unlikely to get much better data from airplane-mounted equipment than from equipment in Earth orbit. (Though when conditions are favorable, you might be able to get higher resolution.)
– a CVn
18 hours ago
8
8
They probably already do carry such instruments, to help the pilots know when to to turn on the chemtrail generators. Of course everyone in the aviation industry is sworn to secrecy and will deny this.
– quiet flyer
12 hours ago
They probably already do carry such instruments, to help the pilots know when to to turn on the chemtrail generators. Of course everyone in the aviation industry is sworn to secrecy and will deny this.
– quiet flyer
12 hours ago
9
9
Operating a commercial service while also carrying equipment serving an intelligence gathering or espionage role would certainly introduce legal complications. Many destination countries would not generally be happy about foreign carriers spying on their country.
– J...
11 hours ago
Operating a commercial service while also carrying equipment serving an intelligence gathering or espionage role would certainly introduce legal complications. Many destination countries would not generally be happy about foreign carriers spying on their country.
– J...
11 hours ago
3
3
@CamiloRada there are already dedicated companies that do such things. Most high resolution images on google earth are in fact from small planes and not satellites. Oil companies frequently contract such people for photography/lidar of interesting regions. Probably airline companies are not that interested in competing in a new industry all of the sudden.
– mbrig
7 hours ago
@CamiloRada there are already dedicated companies that do such things. Most high resolution images on google earth are in fact from small planes and not satellites. Oil companies frequently contract such people for photography/lidar of interesting regions. Probably airline companies are not that interested in competing in a new industry all of the sudden.
– mbrig
7 hours ago
|
show 8 more comments
7 Answers
7
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31
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They do! Well, at least some of them. There is for example a project called TAMDAR (Tropospheric Airborne Meteorological Data Reporting) that e.g. Icelandair is a part of. There is a document published by the Icelandic Meteorological Office about it.
3
More broadly, the AMDAR program does this on a worldwide basis with participating airlines and national meteorological agencies. The advantage is that it works using pressure and temperature sensors that are already factory equipment on airliners, along with the communications equipment typically available, so the costs are fairly minimal (and there's some benefit to the airlines, as anything that helps weather forecasters can help them). More complicated special-purpose sensors would be quite expensive and a much harder sell.
– Zach Lipton
16 hours ago
3
I would not call that "Earth observing instruments".
– Vladimir F
12 hours ago
@VladimirF now I looked up the definition of "Earth observation" on Wikipedia and the first point is "Earth observations may include: numerical measurements taken by a thermometer, wind gauge, ocean buoy, altimeter or seismometer"
– Florian
2 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
24
down vote
I work in the aviation industry, specifically repair, maintenance and engineering. While not an engineer myself, I work alongside them.
Adding anything to an airframe, internally or externally, always has a cost in time, materials and funds. Our company is in the process of modifying ERJ regional aircraft with seatside electrical outlets for passenger access. The project manager and our electrical engineer have each spent over 200 hours designing the controls and wiring for the mod, procuring materials and consulting airframe engineers. Our inspectors have consulted with the FAA to have the mod approved. Our structures and interior technicians have designed and produced new panels inside the cabin, and our electricians have installed the controls and wiring.
This project has cost our customer roughly half a million dollars, and this figure does not take into account the inevitable oversights that arise in any engineering project. These additions to the airframe must be carefully considered against the aircraft total weight and the balance on each axis of control. Now add in training time for aircrews to be aware of the mods and how to handle issues.
Your proposal will necessarily cost at least this amount, and may not be feasible if the equipment is too heavy or bulky. In light of the other comments, I conclude that this will never fly. However, the military might be tasked with this kind of job, as they already have dedicated surveillance aircraft.
Good luck in Patagonia.
New contributor
Hi Dan, it is very interesting to hear an opinion from an insider. Thanks! that helps. However, it is still unclear to my why the economical benefits of having power outlets on the sear outweighs so clearly the benefits that could be obtained of selling imagery and terrain data for aglriculture, map providers (like google maps, here, etc.), mining, etc. All those industries currently spend millions of dollars in products that could be acquired from comercial airliners. I'm sure companies already made the cost benefit math, I wonder what makes Earth Observation such a bad idea for airlines,
– Camilo Rada
7 hours ago
1
@CamiloRada, as you note in your question, coverage by commercial aircraft is limited, though the re-visit time is pretty good. Commercial imagery providers get more value from having large-area coverage than they do from re-visit frequency, so the better value-for-money option is to run their own fleet of dedicated aircraft with low-frequency visits to each area.
– Mark
4 hours ago
"Adding anything to an airframe, internally or externally, always has a cost in time, materials and funds." And fuel! Anything that has mass requires fuel to fly in an airplane. While satellites requires massive amounts of fuel to get to orbit, they require virtual no fuel once on-orbit. The same is not true for aircraft. To the airlines (or any other operator of airplanes) weight = money.
– reirab
3 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
8
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Is there any insurmountable technical or legal limitation to equip
commercial airplanes with Earth Observing instruments?
This question would probably be better answered on space.se, by people who know what are the advantages of a satellite over an aircraft and the reasons why missions are not conducted on aircraft.
However several aspects indeed differ between a satellite and a commercial plane, three come to mind:
- The practical area visible for a given field of view: At 400 km altitude (low end of the low earth orbit) the area covered is much larger than at 10 km.
You can have an idea by comparing what you can view through a camera on each side of a given object, when this object is at 10 m and at 400 m.
Depending on the mission this can be decisive.
- The degree and frequency of vibrations: Usually, when out of the atmosphere, a satellite is very stable. A plane shows a lot of (comparatively) large amplitude vibrations due to the engines and the aerodynamic pressure, especially at high frequencies.
This is not a trivial problem, because at 10 km you usually need a very long focal length (or a very small aperture radar array), and the effect of the vibrations is directly proportional to the focal length.
Large sensors used for good definition and contrasted shots also increase the effect in proportion of their diameter, because if the diameter is twice, the focal length must be twice to maintain the field of view (that's why digital cameras with small sensors have short lens).
What can be seen as a simple problem on Earth with a 50 mm lens and a full size sensor, is actually a serious one when surveying at 10 km.
A stabilization mechanism will be required (e.g. inertial platform, or mirror/lens/aerial dynamic correction). However those mechanisms need expensive maintenance and/or calibration to be effective.
No airline will allow repetitive maintenance windows for that. Even when paid, this won't be comparable to passenger tickets, cargo fees and on-board sales. Airliners are not, for this aspect, comparable to spy aircraft and dedicated surveying aircraft.
Aircraft also experience permanent roll, pitch and yaw changes, but as they are relatively slow they are easy to counter with a simple stabilized platform.
- Area coverage: Airways are very small corridors in the sky, at specific locations.
In contrary satellites in low orbit (which are therefore not geostationary) see the Earth rotating below them and cover easily most of the planet area (specially polar orbit ones).
Regarding the cloud coverage preventing satellite observation, the problem will be nearly the same for an airliner. It flies above the clouds, even if polar routes are lower due to the tropopause being closer to the ground.
Hmmm. But the question is not about the differences between satellite capabilities and aircraft-based capabilities. It’s about technical and legal limitations of the working with airlines. Thus, this network is more appropriate than the space.se network.
– Jimmy
12 hours ago
1
I get your points. But you can build another even longer list of the difficulties of operating and instrument from a satellite in contrast to an airplane. The cost of the down time that an extra system might require is an interesting one. Also, regarding to coverage, many satellites don't have storage capacity and can only rely information back to earth when they are over a ground station. Therefore, they can only really observe the terrain around the ground station. For a long time brazilian, indian and corean satelites were ony observing their own countries. Still they sent a satellite.
– Camilo Rada
7 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
6
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Aside from the issues of weight and complexity, there are potential legal and political considerations regarding commercial carriage of certain kinds of observational equipment. Korean Airlines Flight 007 was shot down by a Soviet interceptor in 1983 when it inadvertently flew over Soviet territory leading the Soviets to believe it to be a military reconnaissance aircraft. Equipping commercial aircraft with photographic or laser-based earth observation instruments--even if meant to measure ice, water, clouds, or topography--could be seen as potentially hostile, leading to an elevated risk of civilian casualties.
It wouldn't have to be a shoot-down, either: a forced landing and detention of the passengers would make people much less likely to fly that airline. At a minimum, airlines might have to change routes around politically sensitive areas, leading to increased costs, even if only a few aircraft were so configured.
While major powers such as the US, Russia, and China would be unlikely to undertake excessively hostile action, one cannot always predict what a smaller nation might do.
New contributor
This makes a lot of sense, and is the best explanation I found so far. Still doesn't explain why is such a bad business to do it on domestic flights. I mean, within the US borders agriculture, map providers (like google maps, here, etc.), mining, and other industries spend millions of dollars on imagery and terrain data that could be acquired from comercial airliners. I'm sure companies already made the cost benefit math, I wonder what makes Earth Observation such a bad idea for airlines.
– Camilo Rada
7 hours ago
@CamiloRada in this scenario, adding the equipment makes the aircraft only usable flights that remain in domestic/international airspace. This makes the airline less flexible. The other option is to go to the additional cost of making it modular and taking it out when not allowed.
– fooot
5 hours ago
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up vote
4
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A major reason would be that Earth Observing systems are large, and would take up a significant portion of the interior space of the airliner, space that the company wishes to sell to passengers. they are also heavy, which would impact the range of the plane and trip and drive up fuel costs.
Additionally, airliners want to get from airport to airport as quickly as possible, whereas in observation missions you want to get as many passes over important areas at specific altitudes as possible.
NASA flies many airborne missions every year specifically for earth observations. Some of these are simply proving future satellite sensors, but many more are purely for gathering data on a specific parameter. They utilize their own aircraft though, because the aircraft typically need to be specially modified for the equipment, specifically with portholes cut in the belly of the frame and they then dont have to compete with the needs of a passenger service when it comes to route.
New contributor
Well, EO systems are not that large anymore. Every kilogram put into orbit cost a lot. So many last generation satellites are the size of a minifridge or smaller. The point of airlines wanting to go from airport to airport as quick as possible makes a lot of sense. But for instance, within the US borders coverage of commercial flights would be good, and in the US, agriculture, map providers (like google maps), mining, and other industries spend millions on imagery and terrain data that could be acquired from comercial planes. I wonder what makes Earth Observation such a bad idea for airlines
– Camilo Rada
7 hours ago
3
@CamiloRada No, the coverage would be very poor. The USA only has about 5,000 commercial airports with paved runways. Most of those 5,000 have flights to fewer than 10 other destinations, and many have only one commercial route, to the nearest large airport. In other first world countries (Canada, for example) the coverage would be even sparser.
– alephzero
6 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
2
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To measure ice field depths and such you must know the actual position of the sensor with greater accuracy than the precision you need for the final measurement. With a satellite ballistically orbiting the earth, that's easy. With a commercial aircraft flight, that's far more difficult, especially including pitch/yaw/roll effects between the GPS, the INS and the sensor.
Further, while adding a sensor to a satellite and orbiting same is very expensive, doing so for a vast fleet of airliners may well be even more so, especially when that includes paying the airlines for the privilege of doing so, including the ongoing maintenance that satellites don't need (they seldom need washing, etc.).
For height measurement, lack of accuracy in position knowledge is definitely a good point
– mins
8 hours ago
That is true, but it is a solved problem. All the surveying software currently use for UAVs (aka drones) acquired data deals with those issues with no problem, basically using correlations within the data and some ground control points. The cost of equipping planes with the instruments is a good point. But I'm not sure if it is the only or main factor.
– Camilo Rada
7 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
Space fan here, and I think you are underestimating the size of the task.
Earth has a surface area of 510 million km2.
A plane travelling at 500km/h with a 10km observation track can cover 5000km2/h, or 50000km2 per 10 hour operational day, ignoring transit to/from nearest available airport. It would need approximately 10000 days (28 plane-years) to cover the surface of the earth. I'm not sure what the cost of operating say 7 crewed planes throughout daylight hours for 4 years is, but I'm sure it adds up, even for a small plane. With a crew of 2, we're looking at 56 pilot-years of salaries (assuming they work 10 a day hours 7 days a week and never have time off!) which is running into the millions already, before you even consider fuel or maintenance.
In contrast, SpaceX publish their prices and you can charter a Falcon 9 for $62 million to put 22800kg into low earth orbit. Your satellite only weighs 2280kg? No problem, rideshare deals are available, so your budget would be around 6.2 million plus a markup. Just wait for a near polar rideshare (such as the SSO2 mission scheduled to launch on 2 december 2018) and once in orbit your satellite will travel at around 30000km/h, completing 3 laps of the earth every 4 hours. The earth's circumference is 40000km, so with a 10km track you should be able to cover the whole equator in 4000 laps, which is 5333 hours. Accounting for day/night the job should be done in under 2 years with a single satellite.
As discussed in other answers, planes are an option for small areas of particular interest, but just as satellites suffer from cloud obscuration, so can planes be affected by the weather, either by obscuration or by being grounded due to unsafe conditions.
While putting equipment on existing commercial flights is an interesting idea, if the flights follow the same route on a regular basis, only the areas on common flight paths would be mapped, which may or may not coincide with areas of interest.
add a comment |
7 Answers
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7 Answers
7
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active
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active
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up vote
31
down vote
They do! Well, at least some of them. There is for example a project called TAMDAR (Tropospheric Airborne Meteorological Data Reporting) that e.g. Icelandair is a part of. There is a document published by the Icelandic Meteorological Office about it.
3
More broadly, the AMDAR program does this on a worldwide basis with participating airlines and national meteorological agencies. The advantage is that it works using pressure and temperature sensors that are already factory equipment on airliners, along with the communications equipment typically available, so the costs are fairly minimal (and there's some benefit to the airlines, as anything that helps weather forecasters can help them). More complicated special-purpose sensors would be quite expensive and a much harder sell.
– Zach Lipton
16 hours ago
3
I would not call that "Earth observing instruments".
– Vladimir F
12 hours ago
@VladimirF now I looked up the definition of "Earth observation" on Wikipedia and the first point is "Earth observations may include: numerical measurements taken by a thermometer, wind gauge, ocean buoy, altimeter or seismometer"
– Florian
2 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
31
down vote
They do! Well, at least some of them. There is for example a project called TAMDAR (Tropospheric Airborne Meteorological Data Reporting) that e.g. Icelandair is a part of. There is a document published by the Icelandic Meteorological Office about it.
3
More broadly, the AMDAR program does this on a worldwide basis with participating airlines and national meteorological agencies. The advantage is that it works using pressure and temperature sensors that are already factory equipment on airliners, along with the communications equipment typically available, so the costs are fairly minimal (and there's some benefit to the airlines, as anything that helps weather forecasters can help them). More complicated special-purpose sensors would be quite expensive and a much harder sell.
– Zach Lipton
16 hours ago
3
I would not call that "Earth observing instruments".
– Vladimir F
12 hours ago
@VladimirF now I looked up the definition of "Earth observation" on Wikipedia and the first point is "Earth observations may include: numerical measurements taken by a thermometer, wind gauge, ocean buoy, altimeter or seismometer"
– Florian
2 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
31
down vote
up vote
31
down vote
They do! Well, at least some of them. There is for example a project called TAMDAR (Tropospheric Airborne Meteorological Data Reporting) that e.g. Icelandair is a part of. There is a document published by the Icelandic Meteorological Office about it.
They do! Well, at least some of them. There is for example a project called TAMDAR (Tropospheric Airborne Meteorological Data Reporting) that e.g. Icelandair is a part of. There is a document published by the Icelandic Meteorological Office about it.
answered 17 hours ago
Florian
1,2002721
1,2002721
3
More broadly, the AMDAR program does this on a worldwide basis with participating airlines and national meteorological agencies. The advantage is that it works using pressure and temperature sensors that are already factory equipment on airliners, along with the communications equipment typically available, so the costs are fairly minimal (and there's some benefit to the airlines, as anything that helps weather forecasters can help them). More complicated special-purpose sensors would be quite expensive and a much harder sell.
– Zach Lipton
16 hours ago
3
I would not call that "Earth observing instruments".
– Vladimir F
12 hours ago
@VladimirF now I looked up the definition of "Earth observation" on Wikipedia and the first point is "Earth observations may include: numerical measurements taken by a thermometer, wind gauge, ocean buoy, altimeter or seismometer"
– Florian
2 hours ago
add a comment |
3
More broadly, the AMDAR program does this on a worldwide basis with participating airlines and national meteorological agencies. The advantage is that it works using pressure and temperature sensors that are already factory equipment on airliners, along with the communications equipment typically available, so the costs are fairly minimal (and there's some benefit to the airlines, as anything that helps weather forecasters can help them). More complicated special-purpose sensors would be quite expensive and a much harder sell.
– Zach Lipton
16 hours ago
3
I would not call that "Earth observing instruments".
– Vladimir F
12 hours ago
@VladimirF now I looked up the definition of "Earth observation" on Wikipedia and the first point is "Earth observations may include: numerical measurements taken by a thermometer, wind gauge, ocean buoy, altimeter or seismometer"
– Florian
2 hours ago
3
3
More broadly, the AMDAR program does this on a worldwide basis with participating airlines and national meteorological agencies. The advantage is that it works using pressure and temperature sensors that are already factory equipment on airliners, along with the communications equipment typically available, so the costs are fairly minimal (and there's some benefit to the airlines, as anything that helps weather forecasters can help them). More complicated special-purpose sensors would be quite expensive and a much harder sell.
– Zach Lipton
16 hours ago
More broadly, the AMDAR program does this on a worldwide basis with participating airlines and national meteorological agencies. The advantage is that it works using pressure and temperature sensors that are already factory equipment on airliners, along with the communications equipment typically available, so the costs are fairly minimal (and there's some benefit to the airlines, as anything that helps weather forecasters can help them). More complicated special-purpose sensors would be quite expensive and a much harder sell.
– Zach Lipton
16 hours ago
3
3
I would not call that "Earth observing instruments".
– Vladimir F
12 hours ago
I would not call that "Earth observing instruments".
– Vladimir F
12 hours ago
@VladimirF now I looked up the definition of "Earth observation" on Wikipedia and the first point is "Earth observations may include: numerical measurements taken by a thermometer, wind gauge, ocean buoy, altimeter or seismometer"
– Florian
2 hours ago
@VladimirF now I looked up the definition of "Earth observation" on Wikipedia and the first point is "Earth observations may include: numerical measurements taken by a thermometer, wind gauge, ocean buoy, altimeter or seismometer"
– Florian
2 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
24
down vote
I work in the aviation industry, specifically repair, maintenance and engineering. While not an engineer myself, I work alongside them.
Adding anything to an airframe, internally or externally, always has a cost in time, materials and funds. Our company is in the process of modifying ERJ regional aircraft with seatside electrical outlets for passenger access. The project manager and our electrical engineer have each spent over 200 hours designing the controls and wiring for the mod, procuring materials and consulting airframe engineers. Our inspectors have consulted with the FAA to have the mod approved. Our structures and interior technicians have designed and produced new panels inside the cabin, and our electricians have installed the controls and wiring.
This project has cost our customer roughly half a million dollars, and this figure does not take into account the inevitable oversights that arise in any engineering project. These additions to the airframe must be carefully considered against the aircraft total weight and the balance on each axis of control. Now add in training time for aircrews to be aware of the mods and how to handle issues.
Your proposal will necessarily cost at least this amount, and may not be feasible if the equipment is too heavy or bulky. In light of the other comments, I conclude that this will never fly. However, the military might be tasked with this kind of job, as they already have dedicated surveillance aircraft.
Good luck in Patagonia.
New contributor
Hi Dan, it is very interesting to hear an opinion from an insider. Thanks! that helps. However, it is still unclear to my why the economical benefits of having power outlets on the sear outweighs so clearly the benefits that could be obtained of selling imagery and terrain data for aglriculture, map providers (like google maps, here, etc.), mining, etc. All those industries currently spend millions of dollars in products that could be acquired from comercial airliners. I'm sure companies already made the cost benefit math, I wonder what makes Earth Observation such a bad idea for airlines,
– Camilo Rada
7 hours ago
1
@CamiloRada, as you note in your question, coverage by commercial aircraft is limited, though the re-visit time is pretty good. Commercial imagery providers get more value from having large-area coverage than they do from re-visit frequency, so the better value-for-money option is to run their own fleet of dedicated aircraft with low-frequency visits to each area.
– Mark
4 hours ago
"Adding anything to an airframe, internally or externally, always has a cost in time, materials and funds." And fuel! Anything that has mass requires fuel to fly in an airplane. While satellites requires massive amounts of fuel to get to orbit, they require virtual no fuel once on-orbit. The same is not true for aircraft. To the airlines (or any other operator of airplanes) weight = money.
– reirab
3 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
24
down vote
I work in the aviation industry, specifically repair, maintenance and engineering. While not an engineer myself, I work alongside them.
Adding anything to an airframe, internally or externally, always has a cost in time, materials and funds. Our company is in the process of modifying ERJ regional aircraft with seatside electrical outlets for passenger access. The project manager and our electrical engineer have each spent over 200 hours designing the controls and wiring for the mod, procuring materials and consulting airframe engineers. Our inspectors have consulted with the FAA to have the mod approved. Our structures and interior technicians have designed and produced new panels inside the cabin, and our electricians have installed the controls and wiring.
This project has cost our customer roughly half a million dollars, and this figure does not take into account the inevitable oversights that arise in any engineering project. These additions to the airframe must be carefully considered against the aircraft total weight and the balance on each axis of control. Now add in training time for aircrews to be aware of the mods and how to handle issues.
Your proposal will necessarily cost at least this amount, and may not be feasible if the equipment is too heavy or bulky. In light of the other comments, I conclude that this will never fly. However, the military might be tasked with this kind of job, as they already have dedicated surveillance aircraft.
Good luck in Patagonia.
New contributor
Hi Dan, it is very interesting to hear an opinion from an insider. Thanks! that helps. However, it is still unclear to my why the economical benefits of having power outlets on the sear outweighs so clearly the benefits that could be obtained of selling imagery and terrain data for aglriculture, map providers (like google maps, here, etc.), mining, etc. All those industries currently spend millions of dollars in products that could be acquired from comercial airliners. I'm sure companies already made the cost benefit math, I wonder what makes Earth Observation such a bad idea for airlines,
– Camilo Rada
7 hours ago
1
@CamiloRada, as you note in your question, coverage by commercial aircraft is limited, though the re-visit time is pretty good. Commercial imagery providers get more value from having large-area coverage than they do from re-visit frequency, so the better value-for-money option is to run their own fleet of dedicated aircraft with low-frequency visits to each area.
– Mark
4 hours ago
"Adding anything to an airframe, internally or externally, always has a cost in time, materials and funds." And fuel! Anything that has mass requires fuel to fly in an airplane. While satellites requires massive amounts of fuel to get to orbit, they require virtual no fuel once on-orbit. The same is not true for aircraft. To the airlines (or any other operator of airplanes) weight = money.
– reirab
3 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
24
down vote
up vote
24
down vote
I work in the aviation industry, specifically repair, maintenance and engineering. While not an engineer myself, I work alongside them.
Adding anything to an airframe, internally or externally, always has a cost in time, materials and funds. Our company is in the process of modifying ERJ regional aircraft with seatside electrical outlets for passenger access. The project manager and our electrical engineer have each spent over 200 hours designing the controls and wiring for the mod, procuring materials and consulting airframe engineers. Our inspectors have consulted with the FAA to have the mod approved. Our structures and interior technicians have designed and produced new panels inside the cabin, and our electricians have installed the controls and wiring.
This project has cost our customer roughly half a million dollars, and this figure does not take into account the inevitable oversights that arise in any engineering project. These additions to the airframe must be carefully considered against the aircraft total weight and the balance on each axis of control. Now add in training time for aircrews to be aware of the mods and how to handle issues.
Your proposal will necessarily cost at least this amount, and may not be feasible if the equipment is too heavy or bulky. In light of the other comments, I conclude that this will never fly. However, the military might be tasked with this kind of job, as they already have dedicated surveillance aircraft.
Good luck in Patagonia.
New contributor
I work in the aviation industry, specifically repair, maintenance and engineering. While not an engineer myself, I work alongside them.
Adding anything to an airframe, internally or externally, always has a cost in time, materials and funds. Our company is in the process of modifying ERJ regional aircraft with seatside electrical outlets for passenger access. The project manager and our electrical engineer have each spent over 200 hours designing the controls and wiring for the mod, procuring materials and consulting airframe engineers. Our inspectors have consulted with the FAA to have the mod approved. Our structures and interior technicians have designed and produced new panels inside the cabin, and our electricians have installed the controls and wiring.
This project has cost our customer roughly half a million dollars, and this figure does not take into account the inevitable oversights that arise in any engineering project. These additions to the airframe must be carefully considered against the aircraft total weight and the balance on each axis of control. Now add in training time for aircrews to be aware of the mods and how to handle issues.
Your proposal will necessarily cost at least this amount, and may not be feasible if the equipment is too heavy or bulky. In light of the other comments, I conclude that this will never fly. However, the military might be tasked with this kind of job, as they already have dedicated surveillance aircraft.
Good luck in Patagonia.
New contributor
New contributor
answered 11 hours ago
Dan
2113
2113
New contributor
New contributor
Hi Dan, it is very interesting to hear an opinion from an insider. Thanks! that helps. However, it is still unclear to my why the economical benefits of having power outlets on the sear outweighs so clearly the benefits that could be obtained of selling imagery and terrain data for aglriculture, map providers (like google maps, here, etc.), mining, etc. All those industries currently spend millions of dollars in products that could be acquired from comercial airliners. I'm sure companies already made the cost benefit math, I wonder what makes Earth Observation such a bad idea for airlines,
– Camilo Rada
7 hours ago
1
@CamiloRada, as you note in your question, coverage by commercial aircraft is limited, though the re-visit time is pretty good. Commercial imagery providers get more value from having large-area coverage than they do from re-visit frequency, so the better value-for-money option is to run their own fleet of dedicated aircraft with low-frequency visits to each area.
– Mark
4 hours ago
"Adding anything to an airframe, internally or externally, always has a cost in time, materials and funds." And fuel! Anything that has mass requires fuel to fly in an airplane. While satellites requires massive amounts of fuel to get to orbit, they require virtual no fuel once on-orbit. The same is not true for aircraft. To the airlines (or any other operator of airplanes) weight = money.
– reirab
3 hours ago
add a comment |
Hi Dan, it is very interesting to hear an opinion from an insider. Thanks! that helps. However, it is still unclear to my why the economical benefits of having power outlets on the sear outweighs so clearly the benefits that could be obtained of selling imagery and terrain data for aglriculture, map providers (like google maps, here, etc.), mining, etc. All those industries currently spend millions of dollars in products that could be acquired from comercial airliners. I'm sure companies already made the cost benefit math, I wonder what makes Earth Observation such a bad idea for airlines,
– Camilo Rada
7 hours ago
1
@CamiloRada, as you note in your question, coverage by commercial aircraft is limited, though the re-visit time is pretty good. Commercial imagery providers get more value from having large-area coverage than they do from re-visit frequency, so the better value-for-money option is to run their own fleet of dedicated aircraft with low-frequency visits to each area.
– Mark
4 hours ago
"Adding anything to an airframe, internally or externally, always has a cost in time, materials and funds." And fuel! Anything that has mass requires fuel to fly in an airplane. While satellites requires massive amounts of fuel to get to orbit, they require virtual no fuel once on-orbit. The same is not true for aircraft. To the airlines (or any other operator of airplanes) weight = money.
– reirab
3 hours ago
Hi Dan, it is very interesting to hear an opinion from an insider. Thanks! that helps. However, it is still unclear to my why the economical benefits of having power outlets on the sear outweighs so clearly the benefits that could be obtained of selling imagery and terrain data for aglriculture, map providers (like google maps, here, etc.), mining, etc. All those industries currently spend millions of dollars in products that could be acquired from comercial airliners. I'm sure companies already made the cost benefit math, I wonder what makes Earth Observation such a bad idea for airlines,
– Camilo Rada
7 hours ago
Hi Dan, it is very interesting to hear an opinion from an insider. Thanks! that helps. However, it is still unclear to my why the economical benefits of having power outlets on the sear outweighs so clearly the benefits that could be obtained of selling imagery and terrain data for aglriculture, map providers (like google maps, here, etc.), mining, etc. All those industries currently spend millions of dollars in products that could be acquired from comercial airliners. I'm sure companies already made the cost benefit math, I wonder what makes Earth Observation such a bad idea for airlines,
– Camilo Rada
7 hours ago
1
1
@CamiloRada, as you note in your question, coverage by commercial aircraft is limited, though the re-visit time is pretty good. Commercial imagery providers get more value from having large-area coverage than they do from re-visit frequency, so the better value-for-money option is to run their own fleet of dedicated aircraft with low-frequency visits to each area.
– Mark
4 hours ago
@CamiloRada, as you note in your question, coverage by commercial aircraft is limited, though the re-visit time is pretty good. Commercial imagery providers get more value from having large-area coverage than they do from re-visit frequency, so the better value-for-money option is to run their own fleet of dedicated aircraft with low-frequency visits to each area.
– Mark
4 hours ago
"Adding anything to an airframe, internally or externally, always has a cost in time, materials and funds." And fuel! Anything that has mass requires fuel to fly in an airplane. While satellites requires massive amounts of fuel to get to orbit, they require virtual no fuel once on-orbit. The same is not true for aircraft. To the airlines (or any other operator of airplanes) weight = money.
– reirab
3 hours ago
"Adding anything to an airframe, internally or externally, always has a cost in time, materials and funds." And fuel! Anything that has mass requires fuel to fly in an airplane. While satellites requires massive amounts of fuel to get to orbit, they require virtual no fuel once on-orbit. The same is not true for aircraft. To the airlines (or any other operator of airplanes) weight = money.
– reirab
3 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
8
down vote
Is there any insurmountable technical or legal limitation to equip
commercial airplanes with Earth Observing instruments?
This question would probably be better answered on space.se, by people who know what are the advantages of a satellite over an aircraft and the reasons why missions are not conducted on aircraft.
However several aspects indeed differ between a satellite and a commercial plane, three come to mind:
- The practical area visible for a given field of view: At 400 km altitude (low end of the low earth orbit) the area covered is much larger than at 10 km.
You can have an idea by comparing what you can view through a camera on each side of a given object, when this object is at 10 m and at 400 m.
Depending on the mission this can be decisive.
- The degree and frequency of vibrations: Usually, when out of the atmosphere, a satellite is very stable. A plane shows a lot of (comparatively) large amplitude vibrations due to the engines and the aerodynamic pressure, especially at high frequencies.
This is not a trivial problem, because at 10 km you usually need a very long focal length (or a very small aperture radar array), and the effect of the vibrations is directly proportional to the focal length.
Large sensors used for good definition and contrasted shots also increase the effect in proportion of their diameter, because if the diameter is twice, the focal length must be twice to maintain the field of view (that's why digital cameras with small sensors have short lens).
What can be seen as a simple problem on Earth with a 50 mm lens and a full size sensor, is actually a serious one when surveying at 10 km.
A stabilization mechanism will be required (e.g. inertial platform, or mirror/lens/aerial dynamic correction). However those mechanisms need expensive maintenance and/or calibration to be effective.
No airline will allow repetitive maintenance windows for that. Even when paid, this won't be comparable to passenger tickets, cargo fees and on-board sales. Airliners are not, for this aspect, comparable to spy aircraft and dedicated surveying aircraft.
Aircraft also experience permanent roll, pitch and yaw changes, but as they are relatively slow they are easy to counter with a simple stabilized platform.
- Area coverage: Airways are very small corridors in the sky, at specific locations.
In contrary satellites in low orbit (which are therefore not geostationary) see the Earth rotating below them and cover easily most of the planet area (specially polar orbit ones).
Regarding the cloud coverage preventing satellite observation, the problem will be nearly the same for an airliner. It flies above the clouds, even if polar routes are lower due to the tropopause being closer to the ground.
Hmmm. But the question is not about the differences between satellite capabilities and aircraft-based capabilities. It’s about technical and legal limitations of the working with airlines. Thus, this network is more appropriate than the space.se network.
– Jimmy
12 hours ago
1
I get your points. But you can build another even longer list of the difficulties of operating and instrument from a satellite in contrast to an airplane. The cost of the down time that an extra system might require is an interesting one. Also, regarding to coverage, many satellites don't have storage capacity and can only rely information back to earth when they are over a ground station. Therefore, they can only really observe the terrain around the ground station. For a long time brazilian, indian and corean satelites were ony observing their own countries. Still they sent a satellite.
– Camilo Rada
7 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
8
down vote
Is there any insurmountable technical or legal limitation to equip
commercial airplanes with Earth Observing instruments?
This question would probably be better answered on space.se, by people who know what are the advantages of a satellite over an aircraft and the reasons why missions are not conducted on aircraft.
However several aspects indeed differ between a satellite and a commercial plane, three come to mind:
- The practical area visible for a given field of view: At 400 km altitude (low end of the low earth orbit) the area covered is much larger than at 10 km.
You can have an idea by comparing what you can view through a camera on each side of a given object, when this object is at 10 m and at 400 m.
Depending on the mission this can be decisive.
- The degree and frequency of vibrations: Usually, when out of the atmosphere, a satellite is very stable. A plane shows a lot of (comparatively) large amplitude vibrations due to the engines and the aerodynamic pressure, especially at high frequencies.
This is not a trivial problem, because at 10 km you usually need a very long focal length (or a very small aperture radar array), and the effect of the vibrations is directly proportional to the focal length.
Large sensors used for good definition and contrasted shots also increase the effect in proportion of their diameter, because if the diameter is twice, the focal length must be twice to maintain the field of view (that's why digital cameras with small sensors have short lens).
What can be seen as a simple problem on Earth with a 50 mm lens and a full size sensor, is actually a serious one when surveying at 10 km.
A stabilization mechanism will be required (e.g. inertial platform, or mirror/lens/aerial dynamic correction). However those mechanisms need expensive maintenance and/or calibration to be effective.
No airline will allow repetitive maintenance windows for that. Even when paid, this won't be comparable to passenger tickets, cargo fees and on-board sales. Airliners are not, for this aspect, comparable to spy aircraft and dedicated surveying aircraft.
Aircraft also experience permanent roll, pitch and yaw changes, but as they are relatively slow they are easy to counter with a simple stabilized platform.
- Area coverage: Airways are very small corridors in the sky, at specific locations.
In contrary satellites in low orbit (which are therefore not geostationary) see the Earth rotating below them and cover easily most of the planet area (specially polar orbit ones).
Regarding the cloud coverage preventing satellite observation, the problem will be nearly the same for an airliner. It flies above the clouds, even if polar routes are lower due to the tropopause being closer to the ground.
Hmmm. But the question is not about the differences between satellite capabilities and aircraft-based capabilities. It’s about technical and legal limitations of the working with airlines. Thus, this network is more appropriate than the space.se network.
– Jimmy
12 hours ago
1
I get your points. But you can build another even longer list of the difficulties of operating and instrument from a satellite in contrast to an airplane. The cost of the down time that an extra system might require is an interesting one. Also, regarding to coverage, many satellites don't have storage capacity and can only rely information back to earth when they are over a ground station. Therefore, they can only really observe the terrain around the ground station. For a long time brazilian, indian and corean satelites were ony observing their own countries. Still they sent a satellite.
– Camilo Rada
7 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
8
down vote
up vote
8
down vote
Is there any insurmountable technical or legal limitation to equip
commercial airplanes with Earth Observing instruments?
This question would probably be better answered on space.se, by people who know what are the advantages of a satellite over an aircraft and the reasons why missions are not conducted on aircraft.
However several aspects indeed differ between a satellite and a commercial plane, three come to mind:
- The practical area visible for a given field of view: At 400 km altitude (low end of the low earth orbit) the area covered is much larger than at 10 km.
You can have an idea by comparing what you can view through a camera on each side of a given object, when this object is at 10 m and at 400 m.
Depending on the mission this can be decisive.
- The degree and frequency of vibrations: Usually, when out of the atmosphere, a satellite is very stable. A plane shows a lot of (comparatively) large amplitude vibrations due to the engines and the aerodynamic pressure, especially at high frequencies.
This is not a trivial problem, because at 10 km you usually need a very long focal length (or a very small aperture radar array), and the effect of the vibrations is directly proportional to the focal length.
Large sensors used for good definition and contrasted shots also increase the effect in proportion of their diameter, because if the diameter is twice, the focal length must be twice to maintain the field of view (that's why digital cameras with small sensors have short lens).
What can be seen as a simple problem on Earth with a 50 mm lens and a full size sensor, is actually a serious one when surveying at 10 km.
A stabilization mechanism will be required (e.g. inertial platform, or mirror/lens/aerial dynamic correction). However those mechanisms need expensive maintenance and/or calibration to be effective.
No airline will allow repetitive maintenance windows for that. Even when paid, this won't be comparable to passenger tickets, cargo fees and on-board sales. Airliners are not, for this aspect, comparable to spy aircraft and dedicated surveying aircraft.
Aircraft also experience permanent roll, pitch and yaw changes, but as they are relatively slow they are easy to counter with a simple stabilized platform.
- Area coverage: Airways are very small corridors in the sky, at specific locations.
In contrary satellites in low orbit (which are therefore not geostationary) see the Earth rotating below them and cover easily most of the planet area (specially polar orbit ones).
Regarding the cloud coverage preventing satellite observation, the problem will be nearly the same for an airliner. It flies above the clouds, even if polar routes are lower due to the tropopause being closer to the ground.
Is there any insurmountable technical or legal limitation to equip
commercial airplanes with Earth Observing instruments?
This question would probably be better answered on space.se, by people who know what are the advantages of a satellite over an aircraft and the reasons why missions are not conducted on aircraft.
However several aspects indeed differ between a satellite and a commercial plane, three come to mind:
- The practical area visible for a given field of view: At 400 km altitude (low end of the low earth orbit) the area covered is much larger than at 10 km.
You can have an idea by comparing what you can view through a camera on each side of a given object, when this object is at 10 m and at 400 m.
Depending on the mission this can be decisive.
- The degree and frequency of vibrations: Usually, when out of the atmosphere, a satellite is very stable. A plane shows a lot of (comparatively) large amplitude vibrations due to the engines and the aerodynamic pressure, especially at high frequencies.
This is not a trivial problem, because at 10 km you usually need a very long focal length (or a very small aperture radar array), and the effect of the vibrations is directly proportional to the focal length.
Large sensors used for good definition and contrasted shots also increase the effect in proportion of their diameter, because if the diameter is twice, the focal length must be twice to maintain the field of view (that's why digital cameras with small sensors have short lens).
What can be seen as a simple problem on Earth with a 50 mm lens and a full size sensor, is actually a serious one when surveying at 10 km.
A stabilization mechanism will be required (e.g. inertial platform, or mirror/lens/aerial dynamic correction). However those mechanisms need expensive maintenance and/or calibration to be effective.
No airline will allow repetitive maintenance windows for that. Even when paid, this won't be comparable to passenger tickets, cargo fees and on-board sales. Airliners are not, for this aspect, comparable to spy aircraft and dedicated surveying aircraft.
Aircraft also experience permanent roll, pitch and yaw changes, but as they are relatively slow they are easy to counter with a simple stabilized platform.
- Area coverage: Airways are very small corridors in the sky, at specific locations.
In contrary satellites in low orbit (which are therefore not geostationary) see the Earth rotating below them and cover easily most of the planet area (specially polar orbit ones).
Regarding the cloud coverage preventing satellite observation, the problem will be nearly the same for an airliner. It flies above the clouds, even if polar routes are lower due to the tropopause being closer to the ground.
edited 9 hours ago
answered 13 hours ago
mins
39.7k17169294
39.7k17169294
Hmmm. But the question is not about the differences between satellite capabilities and aircraft-based capabilities. It’s about technical and legal limitations of the working with airlines. Thus, this network is more appropriate than the space.se network.
– Jimmy
12 hours ago
1
I get your points. But you can build another even longer list of the difficulties of operating and instrument from a satellite in contrast to an airplane. The cost of the down time that an extra system might require is an interesting one. Also, regarding to coverage, many satellites don't have storage capacity and can only rely information back to earth when they are over a ground station. Therefore, they can only really observe the terrain around the ground station. For a long time brazilian, indian and corean satelites were ony observing their own countries. Still they sent a satellite.
– Camilo Rada
7 hours ago
add a comment |
Hmmm. But the question is not about the differences between satellite capabilities and aircraft-based capabilities. It’s about technical and legal limitations of the working with airlines. Thus, this network is more appropriate than the space.se network.
– Jimmy
12 hours ago
1
I get your points. But you can build another even longer list of the difficulties of operating and instrument from a satellite in contrast to an airplane. The cost of the down time that an extra system might require is an interesting one. Also, regarding to coverage, many satellites don't have storage capacity and can only rely information back to earth when they are over a ground station. Therefore, they can only really observe the terrain around the ground station. For a long time brazilian, indian and corean satelites were ony observing their own countries. Still they sent a satellite.
– Camilo Rada
7 hours ago
Hmmm. But the question is not about the differences between satellite capabilities and aircraft-based capabilities. It’s about technical and legal limitations of the working with airlines. Thus, this network is more appropriate than the space.se network.
– Jimmy
12 hours ago
Hmmm. But the question is not about the differences between satellite capabilities and aircraft-based capabilities. It’s about technical and legal limitations of the working with airlines. Thus, this network is more appropriate than the space.se network.
– Jimmy
12 hours ago
1
1
I get your points. But you can build another even longer list of the difficulties of operating and instrument from a satellite in contrast to an airplane. The cost of the down time that an extra system might require is an interesting one. Also, regarding to coverage, many satellites don't have storage capacity and can only rely information back to earth when they are over a ground station. Therefore, they can only really observe the terrain around the ground station. For a long time brazilian, indian and corean satelites were ony observing their own countries. Still they sent a satellite.
– Camilo Rada
7 hours ago
I get your points. But you can build another even longer list of the difficulties of operating and instrument from a satellite in contrast to an airplane. The cost of the down time that an extra system might require is an interesting one. Also, regarding to coverage, many satellites don't have storage capacity and can only rely information back to earth when they are over a ground station. Therefore, they can only really observe the terrain around the ground station. For a long time brazilian, indian and corean satelites were ony observing their own countries. Still they sent a satellite.
– Camilo Rada
7 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
6
down vote
Aside from the issues of weight and complexity, there are potential legal and political considerations regarding commercial carriage of certain kinds of observational equipment. Korean Airlines Flight 007 was shot down by a Soviet interceptor in 1983 when it inadvertently flew over Soviet territory leading the Soviets to believe it to be a military reconnaissance aircraft. Equipping commercial aircraft with photographic or laser-based earth observation instruments--even if meant to measure ice, water, clouds, or topography--could be seen as potentially hostile, leading to an elevated risk of civilian casualties.
It wouldn't have to be a shoot-down, either: a forced landing and detention of the passengers would make people much less likely to fly that airline. At a minimum, airlines might have to change routes around politically sensitive areas, leading to increased costs, even if only a few aircraft were so configured.
While major powers such as the US, Russia, and China would be unlikely to undertake excessively hostile action, one cannot always predict what a smaller nation might do.
New contributor
This makes a lot of sense, and is the best explanation I found so far. Still doesn't explain why is such a bad business to do it on domestic flights. I mean, within the US borders agriculture, map providers (like google maps, here, etc.), mining, and other industries spend millions of dollars on imagery and terrain data that could be acquired from comercial airliners. I'm sure companies already made the cost benefit math, I wonder what makes Earth Observation such a bad idea for airlines.
– Camilo Rada
7 hours ago
@CamiloRada in this scenario, adding the equipment makes the aircraft only usable flights that remain in domestic/international airspace. This makes the airline less flexible. The other option is to go to the additional cost of making it modular and taking it out when not allowed.
– fooot
5 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
6
down vote
Aside from the issues of weight and complexity, there are potential legal and political considerations regarding commercial carriage of certain kinds of observational equipment. Korean Airlines Flight 007 was shot down by a Soviet interceptor in 1983 when it inadvertently flew over Soviet territory leading the Soviets to believe it to be a military reconnaissance aircraft. Equipping commercial aircraft with photographic or laser-based earth observation instruments--even if meant to measure ice, water, clouds, or topography--could be seen as potentially hostile, leading to an elevated risk of civilian casualties.
It wouldn't have to be a shoot-down, either: a forced landing and detention of the passengers would make people much less likely to fly that airline. At a minimum, airlines might have to change routes around politically sensitive areas, leading to increased costs, even if only a few aircraft were so configured.
While major powers such as the US, Russia, and China would be unlikely to undertake excessively hostile action, one cannot always predict what a smaller nation might do.
New contributor
This makes a lot of sense, and is the best explanation I found so far. Still doesn't explain why is such a bad business to do it on domestic flights. I mean, within the US borders agriculture, map providers (like google maps, here, etc.), mining, and other industries spend millions of dollars on imagery and terrain data that could be acquired from comercial airliners. I'm sure companies already made the cost benefit math, I wonder what makes Earth Observation such a bad idea for airlines.
– Camilo Rada
7 hours ago
@CamiloRada in this scenario, adding the equipment makes the aircraft only usable flights that remain in domestic/international airspace. This makes the airline less flexible. The other option is to go to the additional cost of making it modular and taking it out when not allowed.
– fooot
5 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
6
down vote
up vote
6
down vote
Aside from the issues of weight and complexity, there are potential legal and political considerations regarding commercial carriage of certain kinds of observational equipment. Korean Airlines Flight 007 was shot down by a Soviet interceptor in 1983 when it inadvertently flew over Soviet territory leading the Soviets to believe it to be a military reconnaissance aircraft. Equipping commercial aircraft with photographic or laser-based earth observation instruments--even if meant to measure ice, water, clouds, or topography--could be seen as potentially hostile, leading to an elevated risk of civilian casualties.
It wouldn't have to be a shoot-down, either: a forced landing and detention of the passengers would make people much less likely to fly that airline. At a minimum, airlines might have to change routes around politically sensitive areas, leading to increased costs, even if only a few aircraft were so configured.
While major powers such as the US, Russia, and China would be unlikely to undertake excessively hostile action, one cannot always predict what a smaller nation might do.
New contributor
Aside from the issues of weight and complexity, there are potential legal and political considerations regarding commercial carriage of certain kinds of observational equipment. Korean Airlines Flight 007 was shot down by a Soviet interceptor in 1983 when it inadvertently flew over Soviet territory leading the Soviets to believe it to be a military reconnaissance aircraft. Equipping commercial aircraft with photographic or laser-based earth observation instruments--even if meant to measure ice, water, clouds, or topography--could be seen as potentially hostile, leading to an elevated risk of civilian casualties.
It wouldn't have to be a shoot-down, either: a forced landing and detention of the passengers would make people much less likely to fly that airline. At a minimum, airlines might have to change routes around politically sensitive areas, leading to increased costs, even if only a few aircraft were so configured.
While major powers such as the US, Russia, and China would be unlikely to undertake excessively hostile action, one cannot always predict what a smaller nation might do.
New contributor
New contributor
answered 11 hours ago
NetworkLlama
611
611
New contributor
New contributor
This makes a lot of sense, and is the best explanation I found so far. Still doesn't explain why is such a bad business to do it on domestic flights. I mean, within the US borders agriculture, map providers (like google maps, here, etc.), mining, and other industries spend millions of dollars on imagery and terrain data that could be acquired from comercial airliners. I'm sure companies already made the cost benefit math, I wonder what makes Earth Observation such a bad idea for airlines.
– Camilo Rada
7 hours ago
@CamiloRada in this scenario, adding the equipment makes the aircraft only usable flights that remain in domestic/international airspace. This makes the airline less flexible. The other option is to go to the additional cost of making it modular and taking it out when not allowed.
– fooot
5 hours ago
add a comment |
This makes a lot of sense, and is the best explanation I found so far. Still doesn't explain why is such a bad business to do it on domestic flights. I mean, within the US borders agriculture, map providers (like google maps, here, etc.), mining, and other industries spend millions of dollars on imagery and terrain data that could be acquired from comercial airliners. I'm sure companies already made the cost benefit math, I wonder what makes Earth Observation such a bad idea for airlines.
– Camilo Rada
7 hours ago
@CamiloRada in this scenario, adding the equipment makes the aircraft only usable flights that remain in domestic/international airspace. This makes the airline less flexible. The other option is to go to the additional cost of making it modular and taking it out when not allowed.
– fooot
5 hours ago
This makes a lot of sense, and is the best explanation I found so far. Still doesn't explain why is such a bad business to do it on domestic flights. I mean, within the US borders agriculture, map providers (like google maps, here, etc.), mining, and other industries spend millions of dollars on imagery and terrain data that could be acquired from comercial airliners. I'm sure companies already made the cost benefit math, I wonder what makes Earth Observation such a bad idea for airlines.
– Camilo Rada
7 hours ago
This makes a lot of sense, and is the best explanation I found so far. Still doesn't explain why is such a bad business to do it on domestic flights. I mean, within the US borders agriculture, map providers (like google maps, here, etc.), mining, and other industries spend millions of dollars on imagery and terrain data that could be acquired from comercial airliners. I'm sure companies already made the cost benefit math, I wonder what makes Earth Observation such a bad idea for airlines.
– Camilo Rada
7 hours ago
@CamiloRada in this scenario, adding the equipment makes the aircraft only usable flights that remain in domestic/international airspace. This makes the airline less flexible. The other option is to go to the additional cost of making it modular and taking it out when not allowed.
– fooot
5 hours ago
@CamiloRada in this scenario, adding the equipment makes the aircraft only usable flights that remain in domestic/international airspace. This makes the airline less flexible. The other option is to go to the additional cost of making it modular and taking it out when not allowed.
– fooot
5 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
4
down vote
A major reason would be that Earth Observing systems are large, and would take up a significant portion of the interior space of the airliner, space that the company wishes to sell to passengers. they are also heavy, which would impact the range of the plane and trip and drive up fuel costs.
Additionally, airliners want to get from airport to airport as quickly as possible, whereas in observation missions you want to get as many passes over important areas at specific altitudes as possible.
NASA flies many airborne missions every year specifically for earth observations. Some of these are simply proving future satellite sensors, but many more are purely for gathering data on a specific parameter. They utilize their own aircraft though, because the aircraft typically need to be specially modified for the equipment, specifically with portholes cut in the belly of the frame and they then dont have to compete with the needs of a passenger service when it comes to route.
New contributor
Well, EO systems are not that large anymore. Every kilogram put into orbit cost a lot. So many last generation satellites are the size of a minifridge or smaller. The point of airlines wanting to go from airport to airport as quick as possible makes a lot of sense. But for instance, within the US borders coverage of commercial flights would be good, and in the US, agriculture, map providers (like google maps), mining, and other industries spend millions on imagery and terrain data that could be acquired from comercial planes. I wonder what makes Earth Observation such a bad idea for airlines
– Camilo Rada
7 hours ago
3
@CamiloRada No, the coverage would be very poor. The USA only has about 5,000 commercial airports with paved runways. Most of those 5,000 have flights to fewer than 10 other destinations, and many have only one commercial route, to the nearest large airport. In other first world countries (Canada, for example) the coverage would be even sparser.
– alephzero
6 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
4
down vote
A major reason would be that Earth Observing systems are large, and would take up a significant portion of the interior space of the airliner, space that the company wishes to sell to passengers. they are also heavy, which would impact the range of the plane and trip and drive up fuel costs.
Additionally, airliners want to get from airport to airport as quickly as possible, whereas in observation missions you want to get as many passes over important areas at specific altitudes as possible.
NASA flies many airborne missions every year specifically for earth observations. Some of these are simply proving future satellite sensors, but many more are purely for gathering data on a specific parameter. They utilize their own aircraft though, because the aircraft typically need to be specially modified for the equipment, specifically with portholes cut in the belly of the frame and they then dont have to compete with the needs of a passenger service when it comes to route.
New contributor
Well, EO systems are not that large anymore. Every kilogram put into orbit cost a lot. So many last generation satellites are the size of a minifridge or smaller. The point of airlines wanting to go from airport to airport as quick as possible makes a lot of sense. But for instance, within the US borders coverage of commercial flights would be good, and in the US, agriculture, map providers (like google maps), mining, and other industries spend millions on imagery and terrain data that could be acquired from comercial planes. I wonder what makes Earth Observation such a bad idea for airlines
– Camilo Rada
7 hours ago
3
@CamiloRada No, the coverage would be very poor. The USA only has about 5,000 commercial airports with paved runways. Most of those 5,000 have flights to fewer than 10 other destinations, and many have only one commercial route, to the nearest large airport. In other first world countries (Canada, for example) the coverage would be even sparser.
– alephzero
6 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
4
down vote
up vote
4
down vote
A major reason would be that Earth Observing systems are large, and would take up a significant portion of the interior space of the airliner, space that the company wishes to sell to passengers. they are also heavy, which would impact the range of the plane and trip and drive up fuel costs.
Additionally, airliners want to get from airport to airport as quickly as possible, whereas in observation missions you want to get as many passes over important areas at specific altitudes as possible.
NASA flies many airborne missions every year specifically for earth observations. Some of these are simply proving future satellite sensors, but many more are purely for gathering data on a specific parameter. They utilize their own aircraft though, because the aircraft typically need to be specially modified for the equipment, specifically with portholes cut in the belly of the frame and they then dont have to compete with the needs of a passenger service when it comes to route.
New contributor
A major reason would be that Earth Observing systems are large, and would take up a significant portion of the interior space of the airliner, space that the company wishes to sell to passengers. they are also heavy, which would impact the range of the plane and trip and drive up fuel costs.
Additionally, airliners want to get from airport to airport as quickly as possible, whereas in observation missions you want to get as many passes over important areas at specific altitudes as possible.
NASA flies many airborne missions every year specifically for earth observations. Some of these are simply proving future satellite sensors, but many more are purely for gathering data on a specific parameter. They utilize their own aircraft though, because the aircraft typically need to be specially modified for the equipment, specifically with portholes cut in the belly of the frame and they then dont have to compete with the needs of a passenger service when it comes to route.
New contributor
New contributor
answered 10 hours ago
Smewhen
411
411
New contributor
New contributor
Well, EO systems are not that large anymore. Every kilogram put into orbit cost a lot. So many last generation satellites are the size of a minifridge or smaller. The point of airlines wanting to go from airport to airport as quick as possible makes a lot of sense. But for instance, within the US borders coverage of commercial flights would be good, and in the US, agriculture, map providers (like google maps), mining, and other industries spend millions on imagery and terrain data that could be acquired from comercial planes. I wonder what makes Earth Observation such a bad idea for airlines
– Camilo Rada
7 hours ago
3
@CamiloRada No, the coverage would be very poor. The USA only has about 5,000 commercial airports with paved runways. Most of those 5,000 have flights to fewer than 10 other destinations, and many have only one commercial route, to the nearest large airport. In other first world countries (Canada, for example) the coverage would be even sparser.
– alephzero
6 hours ago
add a comment |
Well, EO systems are not that large anymore. Every kilogram put into orbit cost a lot. So many last generation satellites are the size of a minifridge or smaller. The point of airlines wanting to go from airport to airport as quick as possible makes a lot of sense. But for instance, within the US borders coverage of commercial flights would be good, and in the US, agriculture, map providers (like google maps), mining, and other industries spend millions on imagery and terrain data that could be acquired from comercial planes. I wonder what makes Earth Observation such a bad idea for airlines
– Camilo Rada
7 hours ago
3
@CamiloRada No, the coverage would be very poor. The USA only has about 5,000 commercial airports with paved runways. Most of those 5,000 have flights to fewer than 10 other destinations, and many have only one commercial route, to the nearest large airport. In other first world countries (Canada, for example) the coverage would be even sparser.
– alephzero
6 hours ago
Well, EO systems are not that large anymore. Every kilogram put into orbit cost a lot. So many last generation satellites are the size of a minifridge or smaller. The point of airlines wanting to go from airport to airport as quick as possible makes a lot of sense. But for instance, within the US borders coverage of commercial flights would be good, and in the US, agriculture, map providers (like google maps), mining, and other industries spend millions on imagery and terrain data that could be acquired from comercial planes. I wonder what makes Earth Observation such a bad idea for airlines
– Camilo Rada
7 hours ago
Well, EO systems are not that large anymore. Every kilogram put into orbit cost a lot. So many last generation satellites are the size of a minifridge or smaller. The point of airlines wanting to go from airport to airport as quick as possible makes a lot of sense. But for instance, within the US borders coverage of commercial flights would be good, and in the US, agriculture, map providers (like google maps), mining, and other industries spend millions on imagery and terrain data that could be acquired from comercial planes. I wonder what makes Earth Observation such a bad idea for airlines
– Camilo Rada
7 hours ago
3
3
@CamiloRada No, the coverage would be very poor. The USA only has about 5,000 commercial airports with paved runways. Most of those 5,000 have flights to fewer than 10 other destinations, and many have only one commercial route, to the nearest large airport. In other first world countries (Canada, for example) the coverage would be even sparser.
– alephzero
6 hours ago
@CamiloRada No, the coverage would be very poor. The USA only has about 5,000 commercial airports with paved runways. Most of those 5,000 have flights to fewer than 10 other destinations, and many have only one commercial route, to the nearest large airport. In other first world countries (Canada, for example) the coverage would be even sparser.
– alephzero
6 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
To measure ice field depths and such you must know the actual position of the sensor with greater accuracy than the precision you need for the final measurement. With a satellite ballistically orbiting the earth, that's easy. With a commercial aircraft flight, that's far more difficult, especially including pitch/yaw/roll effects between the GPS, the INS and the sensor.
Further, while adding a sensor to a satellite and orbiting same is very expensive, doing so for a vast fleet of airliners may well be even more so, especially when that includes paying the airlines for the privilege of doing so, including the ongoing maintenance that satellites don't need (they seldom need washing, etc.).
For height measurement, lack of accuracy in position knowledge is definitely a good point
– mins
8 hours ago
That is true, but it is a solved problem. All the surveying software currently use for UAVs (aka drones) acquired data deals with those issues with no problem, basically using correlations within the data and some ground control points. The cost of equipping planes with the instruments is a good point. But I'm not sure if it is the only or main factor.
– Camilo Rada
7 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
To measure ice field depths and such you must know the actual position of the sensor with greater accuracy than the precision you need for the final measurement. With a satellite ballistically orbiting the earth, that's easy. With a commercial aircraft flight, that's far more difficult, especially including pitch/yaw/roll effects between the GPS, the INS and the sensor.
Further, while adding a sensor to a satellite and orbiting same is very expensive, doing so for a vast fleet of airliners may well be even more so, especially when that includes paying the airlines for the privilege of doing so, including the ongoing maintenance that satellites don't need (they seldom need washing, etc.).
For height measurement, lack of accuracy in position knowledge is definitely a good point
– mins
8 hours ago
That is true, but it is a solved problem. All the surveying software currently use for UAVs (aka drones) acquired data deals with those issues with no problem, basically using correlations within the data and some ground control points. The cost of equipping planes with the instruments is a good point. But I'm not sure if it is the only or main factor.
– Camilo Rada
7 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
up vote
2
down vote
To measure ice field depths and such you must know the actual position of the sensor with greater accuracy than the precision you need for the final measurement. With a satellite ballistically orbiting the earth, that's easy. With a commercial aircraft flight, that's far more difficult, especially including pitch/yaw/roll effects between the GPS, the INS and the sensor.
Further, while adding a sensor to a satellite and orbiting same is very expensive, doing so for a vast fleet of airliners may well be even more so, especially when that includes paying the airlines for the privilege of doing so, including the ongoing maintenance that satellites don't need (they seldom need washing, etc.).
To measure ice field depths and such you must know the actual position of the sensor with greater accuracy than the precision you need for the final measurement. With a satellite ballistically orbiting the earth, that's easy. With a commercial aircraft flight, that's far more difficult, especially including pitch/yaw/roll effects between the GPS, the INS and the sensor.
Further, while adding a sensor to a satellite and orbiting same is very expensive, doing so for a vast fleet of airliners may well be even more so, especially when that includes paying the airlines for the privilege of doing so, including the ongoing maintenance that satellites don't need (they seldom need washing, etc.).
answered 8 hours ago
Jim Horn
26913
26913
For height measurement, lack of accuracy in position knowledge is definitely a good point
– mins
8 hours ago
That is true, but it is a solved problem. All the surveying software currently use for UAVs (aka drones) acquired data deals with those issues with no problem, basically using correlations within the data and some ground control points. The cost of equipping planes with the instruments is a good point. But I'm not sure if it is the only or main factor.
– Camilo Rada
7 hours ago
add a comment |
For height measurement, lack of accuracy in position knowledge is definitely a good point
– mins
8 hours ago
That is true, but it is a solved problem. All the surveying software currently use for UAVs (aka drones) acquired data deals with those issues with no problem, basically using correlations within the data and some ground control points. The cost of equipping planes with the instruments is a good point. But I'm not sure if it is the only or main factor.
– Camilo Rada
7 hours ago
For height measurement, lack of accuracy in position knowledge is definitely a good point
– mins
8 hours ago
For height measurement, lack of accuracy in position knowledge is definitely a good point
– mins
8 hours ago
That is true, but it is a solved problem. All the surveying software currently use for UAVs (aka drones) acquired data deals with those issues with no problem, basically using correlations within the data and some ground control points. The cost of equipping planes with the instruments is a good point. But I'm not sure if it is the only or main factor.
– Camilo Rada
7 hours ago
That is true, but it is a solved problem. All the surveying software currently use for UAVs (aka drones) acquired data deals with those issues with no problem, basically using correlations within the data and some ground control points. The cost of equipping planes with the instruments is a good point. But I'm not sure if it is the only or main factor.
– Camilo Rada
7 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
Space fan here, and I think you are underestimating the size of the task.
Earth has a surface area of 510 million km2.
A plane travelling at 500km/h with a 10km observation track can cover 5000km2/h, or 50000km2 per 10 hour operational day, ignoring transit to/from nearest available airport. It would need approximately 10000 days (28 plane-years) to cover the surface of the earth. I'm not sure what the cost of operating say 7 crewed planes throughout daylight hours for 4 years is, but I'm sure it adds up, even for a small plane. With a crew of 2, we're looking at 56 pilot-years of salaries (assuming they work 10 a day hours 7 days a week and never have time off!) which is running into the millions already, before you even consider fuel or maintenance.
In contrast, SpaceX publish their prices and you can charter a Falcon 9 for $62 million to put 22800kg into low earth orbit. Your satellite only weighs 2280kg? No problem, rideshare deals are available, so your budget would be around 6.2 million plus a markup. Just wait for a near polar rideshare (such as the SSO2 mission scheduled to launch on 2 december 2018) and once in orbit your satellite will travel at around 30000km/h, completing 3 laps of the earth every 4 hours. The earth's circumference is 40000km, so with a 10km track you should be able to cover the whole equator in 4000 laps, which is 5333 hours. Accounting for day/night the job should be done in under 2 years with a single satellite.
As discussed in other answers, planes are an option for small areas of particular interest, but just as satellites suffer from cloud obscuration, so can planes be affected by the weather, either by obscuration or by being grounded due to unsafe conditions.
While putting equipment on existing commercial flights is an interesting idea, if the flights follow the same route on a regular basis, only the areas on common flight paths would be mapped, which may or may not coincide with areas of interest.
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
Space fan here, and I think you are underestimating the size of the task.
Earth has a surface area of 510 million km2.
A plane travelling at 500km/h with a 10km observation track can cover 5000km2/h, or 50000km2 per 10 hour operational day, ignoring transit to/from nearest available airport. It would need approximately 10000 days (28 plane-years) to cover the surface of the earth. I'm not sure what the cost of operating say 7 crewed planes throughout daylight hours for 4 years is, but I'm sure it adds up, even for a small plane. With a crew of 2, we're looking at 56 pilot-years of salaries (assuming they work 10 a day hours 7 days a week and never have time off!) which is running into the millions already, before you even consider fuel or maintenance.
In contrast, SpaceX publish their prices and you can charter a Falcon 9 for $62 million to put 22800kg into low earth orbit. Your satellite only weighs 2280kg? No problem, rideshare deals are available, so your budget would be around 6.2 million plus a markup. Just wait for a near polar rideshare (such as the SSO2 mission scheduled to launch on 2 december 2018) and once in orbit your satellite will travel at around 30000km/h, completing 3 laps of the earth every 4 hours. The earth's circumference is 40000km, so with a 10km track you should be able to cover the whole equator in 4000 laps, which is 5333 hours. Accounting for day/night the job should be done in under 2 years with a single satellite.
As discussed in other answers, planes are an option for small areas of particular interest, but just as satellites suffer from cloud obscuration, so can planes be affected by the weather, either by obscuration or by being grounded due to unsafe conditions.
While putting equipment on existing commercial flights is an interesting idea, if the flights follow the same route on a regular basis, only the areas on common flight paths would be mapped, which may or may not coincide with areas of interest.
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
up vote
2
down vote
Space fan here, and I think you are underestimating the size of the task.
Earth has a surface area of 510 million km2.
A plane travelling at 500km/h with a 10km observation track can cover 5000km2/h, or 50000km2 per 10 hour operational day, ignoring transit to/from nearest available airport. It would need approximately 10000 days (28 plane-years) to cover the surface of the earth. I'm not sure what the cost of operating say 7 crewed planes throughout daylight hours for 4 years is, but I'm sure it adds up, even for a small plane. With a crew of 2, we're looking at 56 pilot-years of salaries (assuming they work 10 a day hours 7 days a week and never have time off!) which is running into the millions already, before you even consider fuel or maintenance.
In contrast, SpaceX publish their prices and you can charter a Falcon 9 for $62 million to put 22800kg into low earth orbit. Your satellite only weighs 2280kg? No problem, rideshare deals are available, so your budget would be around 6.2 million plus a markup. Just wait for a near polar rideshare (such as the SSO2 mission scheduled to launch on 2 december 2018) and once in orbit your satellite will travel at around 30000km/h, completing 3 laps of the earth every 4 hours. The earth's circumference is 40000km, so with a 10km track you should be able to cover the whole equator in 4000 laps, which is 5333 hours. Accounting for day/night the job should be done in under 2 years with a single satellite.
As discussed in other answers, planes are an option for small areas of particular interest, but just as satellites suffer from cloud obscuration, so can planes be affected by the weather, either by obscuration or by being grounded due to unsafe conditions.
While putting equipment on existing commercial flights is an interesting idea, if the flights follow the same route on a regular basis, only the areas on common flight paths would be mapped, which may or may not coincide with areas of interest.
Space fan here, and I think you are underestimating the size of the task.
Earth has a surface area of 510 million km2.
A plane travelling at 500km/h with a 10km observation track can cover 5000km2/h, or 50000km2 per 10 hour operational day, ignoring transit to/from nearest available airport. It would need approximately 10000 days (28 plane-years) to cover the surface of the earth. I'm not sure what the cost of operating say 7 crewed planes throughout daylight hours for 4 years is, but I'm sure it adds up, even for a small plane. With a crew of 2, we're looking at 56 pilot-years of salaries (assuming they work 10 a day hours 7 days a week and never have time off!) which is running into the millions already, before you even consider fuel or maintenance.
In contrast, SpaceX publish their prices and you can charter a Falcon 9 for $62 million to put 22800kg into low earth orbit. Your satellite only weighs 2280kg? No problem, rideshare deals are available, so your budget would be around 6.2 million plus a markup. Just wait for a near polar rideshare (such as the SSO2 mission scheduled to launch on 2 december 2018) and once in orbit your satellite will travel at around 30000km/h, completing 3 laps of the earth every 4 hours. The earth's circumference is 40000km, so with a 10km track you should be able to cover the whole equator in 4000 laps, which is 5333 hours. Accounting for day/night the job should be done in under 2 years with a single satellite.
As discussed in other answers, planes are an option for small areas of particular interest, but just as satellites suffer from cloud obscuration, so can planes be affected by the weather, either by obscuration or by being grounded due to unsafe conditions.
While putting equipment on existing commercial flights is an interesting idea, if the flights follow the same route on a regular basis, only the areas on common flight paths would be mapped, which may or may not coincide with areas of interest.
edited 2 hours ago
answered 2 hours ago
Level River St
871411
871411
add a comment |
add a comment |
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16
I doubt the "no additional cost" thing. A system for ground observation has to be integrated into and powered by the plane's systems. Thus it is a maintenance relevant - and might even be flight security relevant - component (it has to be installed on the plane with a direct line of sight to the ground) that does induce extra cost for no benefit for the airline.
– Adwaenyth
18 hours ago
9
"persistent cloud cover" ... "instrumentation on the planes that overflight the icefields" This isn't an answer, but it's an issue you definitely would want to consider: Commercial airplanes typically fly above the clouds. So if there's a cloud cover, and you are working in the visual part of the spectrum, you are unlikely to get much better data from airplane-mounted equipment than from equipment in Earth orbit. (Though when conditions are favorable, you might be able to get higher resolution.)
– a CVn
18 hours ago
8
They probably already do carry such instruments, to help the pilots know when to to turn on the chemtrail generators. Of course everyone in the aviation industry is sworn to secrecy and will deny this.
– quiet flyer
12 hours ago
9
Operating a commercial service while also carrying equipment serving an intelligence gathering or espionage role would certainly introduce legal complications. Many destination countries would not generally be happy about foreign carriers spying on their country.
– J...
11 hours ago
3
@CamiloRada there are already dedicated companies that do such things. Most high resolution images on google earth are in fact from small planes and not satellites. Oil companies frequently contract such people for photography/lidar of interesting regions. Probably airline companies are not that interested in competing in a new industry all of the sudden.
– mbrig
7 hours ago