Is sound the best way to transmit a signal under water?











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Could sound be used in transmitting sound waves under water digitally? Could the sound then be converted by a repeater to transit by radio waves? What other ways can a signal be transmitted other than sound over long distances under water?



https://space.stackexchange.com/questions/32421/how-would-a-transmission-be-relayed-through-bottom-of-europa-ocean-to-earth










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up vote
2
down vote

favorite












Could sound be used in transmitting sound waves under water digitally? Could the sound then be converted by a repeater to transit by radio waves? What other ways can a signal be transmitted other than sound over long distances under water?



https://space.stackexchange.com/questions/32421/how-would-a-transmission-be-relayed-through-bottom-of-europa-ocean-to-earth










share|improve this question




















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    This might be a better fit for electronics.stackexchange.com, fyi
    – Carlos Danger
    6 hours ago






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    the way to do that is flag your post as being in need of moderator attention
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  • Migration failed because Muze is currently suspended from the Electronics SE site. Reopening here.
    – Peter K.
    4 hours ago













up vote
2
down vote

favorite









up vote
2
down vote

favorite











Could sound be used in transmitting sound waves under water digitally? Could the sound then be converted by a repeater to transit by radio waves? What other ways can a signal be transmitted other than sound over long distances under water?



https://space.stackexchange.com/questions/32421/how-would-a-transmission-be-relayed-through-bottom-of-europa-ocean-to-earth










share|improve this question















Could sound be used in transmitting sound waves under water digitally? Could the sound then be converted by a repeater to transit by radio waves? What other ways can a signal be transmitted other than sound over long distances under water?



https://space.stackexchange.com/questions/32421/how-would-a-transmission-be-relayed-through-bottom-of-europa-ocean-to-earth







filter-design preprocessing






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edited 5 hours ago

























asked 7 hours ago









Muze

1166




1166








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    This might be a better fit for electronics.stackexchange.com, fyi
    – Carlos Danger
    6 hours ago






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    the way to do that is flag your post as being in need of moderator attention
    – Carlos Danger
    6 hours ago












  • Migration failed because Muze is currently suspended from the Electronics SE site. Reopening here.
    – Peter K.
    4 hours ago














  • 1




    This might be a better fit for electronics.stackexchange.com, fyi
    – Carlos Danger
    6 hours ago






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    the way to do that is flag your post as being in need of moderator attention
    – Carlos Danger
    6 hours ago












  • Migration failed because Muze is currently suspended from the Electronics SE site. Reopening here.
    – Peter K.
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1




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This might be a better fit for electronics.stackexchange.com, fyi
– Carlos Danger
6 hours ago




This might be a better fit for electronics.stackexchange.com, fyi
– Carlos Danger
6 hours ago




1




1




the way to do that is flag your post as being in need of moderator attention
– Carlos Danger
6 hours ago






the way to do that is flag your post as being in need of moderator attention
– Carlos Danger
6 hours ago














Migration failed because Muze is currently suspended from the Electronics SE site. Reopening here.
– Peter K.
4 hours ago




Migration failed because Muze is currently suspended from the Electronics SE site. Reopening here.
– Peter K.
4 hours ago










4 Answers
4






active

oldest

votes

















up vote
5
down vote



accepted










Yes, it is called acoustic communications. Here is an example of a paper that uses orthogonal frequency division multiplexing (OFDM) in an underwater acoustic channel.



EDIT:



Note that you wouldn't call it a SONAR any more because SONAR stands for SOund Navigation And Ranging, whereas this is a communication system, just like you wouldn't call your cell phone a radar.



EDIT 2:



Yes, the signal could be converted to a radio signal at a repeater. The repeater would ideally be floating in the surface and have a transducer (which is basically a microphone or array of microphones) on the underwater side to receive the sound waves. The transducer converts the sound waves into an electrical signal, which can be filtered and/or amplified, and then sent to an antenna for radio transmission. The antenna would likely need to be above water because radio waves don't propagate very far through water.






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  • Thank you if Ok I may add illustration of this?
    – Muze
    7 hours ago










  • @Muze are you talking about taking a figure from the paper? If so, you'd need copyright permission from IEEE
    – Carlos Danger
    7 hours ago






  • 1




    @Muze just go to scholar.google.com and search "underwater acoustic communications". You will find a lot of papers on the subject
    – Carlos Danger
    6 hours ago


















up vote
2
down vote













Yes, actually sound waves are better than RF signal in underwater, because of the low frequency requirement. We don't covert sound waves to radio signals. The transceiver in this case is called transducer.



EDIT: You have basically three options in underwater: RF signals, acoustic signals, and optical signals. RF signals suffer from large path loss, and the range of transmission is in meters. Optical signals suffer from scattering. Acoustic signals suffer from low propagation speed (~1500 m/s), but the transmission range is better than RF signals. Also, you don't need large antennas when transmitting low frequency acoustic signals, which is the case for RF signals. The bandwidth can be increased by using relay-assisted systems.



After a quick search, it seems that sonobuoys seem have antennas that are kept above the surface to communicate with an aircraft or a ship. This is not a wireless communication underwater. The goal of underwater acoustic systems is to exchange information "wirelessly" between node underwater, and then with a central node at the surface that uses RF signals to communication with a center for further analysis/decisions.






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BlackMath is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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  • but is the best method?
    – Muze
    5 hours ago










  • Yes, because RF signals have high path loss in underwater, and low frequency signals mean very large antennas, which require more space and more power.
    – BlackMath
    5 hours ago










  • I up voted you could you tell me what other than sound or RF option is there to transmit under water?
    – Muze
    5 hours ago








  • 1




    @Muze You have basically three options in underwater: RF signals, acoustic signals, and optical signals. RF signals suffer from large path loss, and the range of transmission is in meters. Optical signals suffer from scattering. Acoustic signals suffer from low propagation speed (~1500 m/s), but the transmission range is better than RF signals. Also, you don't need large antennas when transmitting low frequency acoustic signals, which is the case for RF signals. The bandwidth can be increased by using relay-assisted systems.
    – BlackMath
    3 hours ago








  • 1




    sonobuoys convert sound to rf.
    – Stanley Pawlukiewicz
    3 hours ago


















up vote
1
down vote













to be picky, RF is strongly attenuated is salt water.



Fresh water is much less attenuated. During WW2 submerged submarines could use their radios in Lake Michigan.



Very low frequency RF communications is possible in salt water. The bit rate is very low.



Fiber optic cables work well too.



Acoustics tend to be attenuated as well.






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    up vote
    1
    down vote













    This is incredibly common in aquatic robotics. There are multiple uses for underwater acoustic communication such as data transfer, localization to a surface vessel, mission control etc.






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      Your Answer





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      4 Answers
      4






      active

      oldest

      votes








      4 Answers
      4






      active

      oldest

      votes









      active

      oldest

      votes






      active

      oldest

      votes








      up vote
      5
      down vote



      accepted










      Yes, it is called acoustic communications. Here is an example of a paper that uses orthogonal frequency division multiplexing (OFDM) in an underwater acoustic channel.



      EDIT:



      Note that you wouldn't call it a SONAR any more because SONAR stands for SOund Navigation And Ranging, whereas this is a communication system, just like you wouldn't call your cell phone a radar.



      EDIT 2:



      Yes, the signal could be converted to a radio signal at a repeater. The repeater would ideally be floating in the surface and have a transducer (which is basically a microphone or array of microphones) on the underwater side to receive the sound waves. The transducer converts the sound waves into an electrical signal, which can be filtered and/or amplified, and then sent to an antenna for radio transmission. The antenna would likely need to be above water because radio waves don't propagate very far through water.






      share|improve this answer























      • Thank you if Ok I may add illustration of this?
        – Muze
        7 hours ago










      • @Muze are you talking about taking a figure from the paper? If so, you'd need copyright permission from IEEE
        – Carlos Danger
        7 hours ago






      • 1




        @Muze just go to scholar.google.com and search "underwater acoustic communications". You will find a lot of papers on the subject
        – Carlos Danger
        6 hours ago















      up vote
      5
      down vote



      accepted










      Yes, it is called acoustic communications. Here is an example of a paper that uses orthogonal frequency division multiplexing (OFDM) in an underwater acoustic channel.



      EDIT:



      Note that you wouldn't call it a SONAR any more because SONAR stands for SOund Navigation And Ranging, whereas this is a communication system, just like you wouldn't call your cell phone a radar.



      EDIT 2:



      Yes, the signal could be converted to a radio signal at a repeater. The repeater would ideally be floating in the surface and have a transducer (which is basically a microphone or array of microphones) on the underwater side to receive the sound waves. The transducer converts the sound waves into an electrical signal, which can be filtered and/or amplified, and then sent to an antenna for radio transmission. The antenna would likely need to be above water because radio waves don't propagate very far through water.






      share|improve this answer























      • Thank you if Ok I may add illustration of this?
        – Muze
        7 hours ago










      • @Muze are you talking about taking a figure from the paper? If so, you'd need copyright permission from IEEE
        – Carlos Danger
        7 hours ago






      • 1




        @Muze just go to scholar.google.com and search "underwater acoustic communications". You will find a lot of papers on the subject
        – Carlos Danger
        6 hours ago













      up vote
      5
      down vote



      accepted







      up vote
      5
      down vote



      accepted






      Yes, it is called acoustic communications. Here is an example of a paper that uses orthogonal frequency division multiplexing (OFDM) in an underwater acoustic channel.



      EDIT:



      Note that you wouldn't call it a SONAR any more because SONAR stands for SOund Navigation And Ranging, whereas this is a communication system, just like you wouldn't call your cell phone a radar.



      EDIT 2:



      Yes, the signal could be converted to a radio signal at a repeater. The repeater would ideally be floating in the surface and have a transducer (which is basically a microphone or array of microphones) on the underwater side to receive the sound waves. The transducer converts the sound waves into an electrical signal, which can be filtered and/or amplified, and then sent to an antenna for radio transmission. The antenna would likely need to be above water because radio waves don't propagate very far through water.






      share|improve this answer














      Yes, it is called acoustic communications. Here is an example of a paper that uses orthogonal frequency division multiplexing (OFDM) in an underwater acoustic channel.



      EDIT:



      Note that you wouldn't call it a SONAR any more because SONAR stands for SOund Navigation And Ranging, whereas this is a communication system, just like you wouldn't call your cell phone a radar.



      EDIT 2:



      Yes, the signal could be converted to a radio signal at a repeater. The repeater would ideally be floating in the surface and have a transducer (which is basically a microphone or array of microphones) on the underwater side to receive the sound waves. The transducer converts the sound waves into an electrical signal, which can be filtered and/or amplified, and then sent to an antenna for radio transmission. The antenna would likely need to be above water because radio waves don't propagate very far through water.







      share|improve this answer














      share|improve this answer



      share|improve this answer








      edited 6 hours ago

























      answered 7 hours ago









      Carlos Danger

      1,353316




      1,353316












      • Thank you if Ok I may add illustration of this?
        – Muze
        7 hours ago










      • @Muze are you talking about taking a figure from the paper? If so, you'd need copyright permission from IEEE
        – Carlos Danger
        7 hours ago






      • 1




        @Muze just go to scholar.google.com and search "underwater acoustic communications". You will find a lot of papers on the subject
        – Carlos Danger
        6 hours ago


















      • Thank you if Ok I may add illustration of this?
        – Muze
        7 hours ago










      • @Muze are you talking about taking a figure from the paper? If so, you'd need copyright permission from IEEE
        – Carlos Danger
        7 hours ago






      • 1




        @Muze just go to scholar.google.com and search "underwater acoustic communications". You will find a lot of papers on the subject
        – Carlos Danger
        6 hours ago
















      Thank you if Ok I may add illustration of this?
      – Muze
      7 hours ago




      Thank you if Ok I may add illustration of this?
      – Muze
      7 hours ago












      @Muze are you talking about taking a figure from the paper? If so, you'd need copyright permission from IEEE
      – Carlos Danger
      7 hours ago




      @Muze are you talking about taking a figure from the paper? If so, you'd need copyright permission from IEEE
      – Carlos Danger
      7 hours ago




      1




      1




      @Muze just go to scholar.google.com and search "underwater acoustic communications". You will find a lot of papers on the subject
      – Carlos Danger
      6 hours ago




      @Muze just go to scholar.google.com and search "underwater acoustic communications". You will find a lot of papers on the subject
      – Carlos Danger
      6 hours ago










      up vote
      2
      down vote













      Yes, actually sound waves are better than RF signal in underwater, because of the low frequency requirement. We don't covert sound waves to radio signals. The transceiver in this case is called transducer.



      EDIT: You have basically three options in underwater: RF signals, acoustic signals, and optical signals. RF signals suffer from large path loss, and the range of transmission is in meters. Optical signals suffer from scattering. Acoustic signals suffer from low propagation speed (~1500 m/s), but the transmission range is better than RF signals. Also, you don't need large antennas when transmitting low frequency acoustic signals, which is the case for RF signals. The bandwidth can be increased by using relay-assisted systems.



      After a quick search, it seems that sonobuoys seem have antennas that are kept above the surface to communicate with an aircraft or a ship. This is not a wireless communication underwater. The goal of underwater acoustic systems is to exchange information "wirelessly" between node underwater, and then with a central node at the surface that uses RF signals to communication with a center for further analysis/decisions.






      share|improve this answer










      New contributor




      BlackMath is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.


















      • but is the best method?
        – Muze
        5 hours ago










      • Yes, because RF signals have high path loss in underwater, and low frequency signals mean very large antennas, which require more space and more power.
        – BlackMath
        5 hours ago










      • I up voted you could you tell me what other than sound or RF option is there to transmit under water?
        – Muze
        5 hours ago








      • 1




        @Muze You have basically three options in underwater: RF signals, acoustic signals, and optical signals. RF signals suffer from large path loss, and the range of transmission is in meters. Optical signals suffer from scattering. Acoustic signals suffer from low propagation speed (~1500 m/s), but the transmission range is better than RF signals. Also, you don't need large antennas when transmitting low frequency acoustic signals, which is the case for RF signals. The bandwidth can be increased by using relay-assisted systems.
        – BlackMath
        3 hours ago








      • 1




        sonobuoys convert sound to rf.
        – Stanley Pawlukiewicz
        3 hours ago















      up vote
      2
      down vote













      Yes, actually sound waves are better than RF signal in underwater, because of the low frequency requirement. We don't covert sound waves to radio signals. The transceiver in this case is called transducer.



      EDIT: You have basically three options in underwater: RF signals, acoustic signals, and optical signals. RF signals suffer from large path loss, and the range of transmission is in meters. Optical signals suffer from scattering. Acoustic signals suffer from low propagation speed (~1500 m/s), but the transmission range is better than RF signals. Also, you don't need large antennas when transmitting low frequency acoustic signals, which is the case for RF signals. The bandwidth can be increased by using relay-assisted systems.



      After a quick search, it seems that sonobuoys seem have antennas that are kept above the surface to communicate with an aircraft or a ship. This is not a wireless communication underwater. The goal of underwater acoustic systems is to exchange information "wirelessly" between node underwater, and then with a central node at the surface that uses RF signals to communication with a center for further analysis/decisions.






      share|improve this answer










      New contributor




      BlackMath is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.


















      • but is the best method?
        – Muze
        5 hours ago










      • Yes, because RF signals have high path loss in underwater, and low frequency signals mean very large antennas, which require more space and more power.
        – BlackMath
        5 hours ago










      • I up voted you could you tell me what other than sound or RF option is there to transmit under water?
        – Muze
        5 hours ago








      • 1




        @Muze You have basically three options in underwater: RF signals, acoustic signals, and optical signals. RF signals suffer from large path loss, and the range of transmission is in meters. Optical signals suffer from scattering. Acoustic signals suffer from low propagation speed (~1500 m/s), but the transmission range is better than RF signals. Also, you don't need large antennas when transmitting low frequency acoustic signals, which is the case for RF signals. The bandwidth can be increased by using relay-assisted systems.
        – BlackMath
        3 hours ago








      • 1




        sonobuoys convert sound to rf.
        – Stanley Pawlukiewicz
        3 hours ago













      up vote
      2
      down vote










      up vote
      2
      down vote









      Yes, actually sound waves are better than RF signal in underwater, because of the low frequency requirement. We don't covert sound waves to radio signals. The transceiver in this case is called transducer.



      EDIT: You have basically three options in underwater: RF signals, acoustic signals, and optical signals. RF signals suffer from large path loss, and the range of transmission is in meters. Optical signals suffer from scattering. Acoustic signals suffer from low propagation speed (~1500 m/s), but the transmission range is better than RF signals. Also, you don't need large antennas when transmitting low frequency acoustic signals, which is the case for RF signals. The bandwidth can be increased by using relay-assisted systems.



      After a quick search, it seems that sonobuoys seem have antennas that are kept above the surface to communicate with an aircraft or a ship. This is not a wireless communication underwater. The goal of underwater acoustic systems is to exchange information "wirelessly" between node underwater, and then with a central node at the surface that uses RF signals to communication with a center for further analysis/decisions.






      share|improve this answer










      New contributor




      BlackMath is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.









      Yes, actually sound waves are better than RF signal in underwater, because of the low frequency requirement. We don't covert sound waves to radio signals. The transceiver in this case is called transducer.



      EDIT: You have basically three options in underwater: RF signals, acoustic signals, and optical signals. RF signals suffer from large path loss, and the range of transmission is in meters. Optical signals suffer from scattering. Acoustic signals suffer from low propagation speed (~1500 m/s), but the transmission range is better than RF signals. Also, you don't need large antennas when transmitting low frequency acoustic signals, which is the case for RF signals. The bandwidth can be increased by using relay-assisted systems.



      After a quick search, it seems that sonobuoys seem have antennas that are kept above the surface to communicate with an aircraft or a ship. This is not a wireless communication underwater. The goal of underwater acoustic systems is to exchange information "wirelessly" between node underwater, and then with a central node at the surface that uses RF signals to communication with a center for further analysis/decisions.







      share|improve this answer










      New contributor




      BlackMath is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.









      share|improve this answer



      share|improve this answer








      edited 42 mins ago





















      New contributor




      BlackMath is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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      answered 5 hours ago









      BlackMath

      272




      272




      New contributor




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      New contributor





      BlackMath is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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      BlackMath is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.












      • but is the best method?
        – Muze
        5 hours ago










      • Yes, because RF signals have high path loss in underwater, and low frequency signals mean very large antennas, which require more space and more power.
        – BlackMath
        5 hours ago










      • I up voted you could you tell me what other than sound or RF option is there to transmit under water?
        – Muze
        5 hours ago








      • 1




        @Muze You have basically three options in underwater: RF signals, acoustic signals, and optical signals. RF signals suffer from large path loss, and the range of transmission is in meters. Optical signals suffer from scattering. Acoustic signals suffer from low propagation speed (~1500 m/s), but the transmission range is better than RF signals. Also, you don't need large antennas when transmitting low frequency acoustic signals, which is the case for RF signals. The bandwidth can be increased by using relay-assisted systems.
        – BlackMath
        3 hours ago








      • 1




        sonobuoys convert sound to rf.
        – Stanley Pawlukiewicz
        3 hours ago


















      • but is the best method?
        – Muze
        5 hours ago










      • Yes, because RF signals have high path loss in underwater, and low frequency signals mean very large antennas, which require more space and more power.
        – BlackMath
        5 hours ago










      • I up voted you could you tell me what other than sound or RF option is there to transmit under water?
        – Muze
        5 hours ago








      • 1




        @Muze You have basically three options in underwater: RF signals, acoustic signals, and optical signals. RF signals suffer from large path loss, and the range of transmission is in meters. Optical signals suffer from scattering. Acoustic signals suffer from low propagation speed (~1500 m/s), but the transmission range is better than RF signals. Also, you don't need large antennas when transmitting low frequency acoustic signals, which is the case for RF signals. The bandwidth can be increased by using relay-assisted systems.
        – BlackMath
        3 hours ago








      • 1




        sonobuoys convert sound to rf.
        – Stanley Pawlukiewicz
        3 hours ago
















      but is the best method?
      – Muze
      5 hours ago




      but is the best method?
      – Muze
      5 hours ago












      Yes, because RF signals have high path loss in underwater, and low frequency signals mean very large antennas, which require more space and more power.
      – BlackMath
      5 hours ago




      Yes, because RF signals have high path loss in underwater, and low frequency signals mean very large antennas, which require more space and more power.
      – BlackMath
      5 hours ago












      I up voted you could you tell me what other than sound or RF option is there to transmit under water?
      – Muze
      5 hours ago






      I up voted you could you tell me what other than sound or RF option is there to transmit under water?
      – Muze
      5 hours ago






      1




      1




      @Muze You have basically three options in underwater: RF signals, acoustic signals, and optical signals. RF signals suffer from large path loss, and the range of transmission is in meters. Optical signals suffer from scattering. Acoustic signals suffer from low propagation speed (~1500 m/s), but the transmission range is better than RF signals. Also, you don't need large antennas when transmitting low frequency acoustic signals, which is the case for RF signals. The bandwidth can be increased by using relay-assisted systems.
      – BlackMath
      3 hours ago






      @Muze You have basically three options in underwater: RF signals, acoustic signals, and optical signals. RF signals suffer from large path loss, and the range of transmission is in meters. Optical signals suffer from scattering. Acoustic signals suffer from low propagation speed (~1500 m/s), but the transmission range is better than RF signals. Also, you don't need large antennas when transmitting low frequency acoustic signals, which is the case for RF signals. The bandwidth can be increased by using relay-assisted systems.
      – BlackMath
      3 hours ago






      1




      1




      sonobuoys convert sound to rf.
      – Stanley Pawlukiewicz
      3 hours ago




      sonobuoys convert sound to rf.
      – Stanley Pawlukiewicz
      3 hours ago










      up vote
      1
      down vote













      to be picky, RF is strongly attenuated is salt water.



      Fresh water is much less attenuated. During WW2 submerged submarines could use their radios in Lake Michigan.



      Very low frequency RF communications is possible in salt water. The bit rate is very low.



      Fiber optic cables work well too.



      Acoustics tend to be attenuated as well.






      share|improve this answer



























        up vote
        1
        down vote













        to be picky, RF is strongly attenuated is salt water.



        Fresh water is much less attenuated. During WW2 submerged submarines could use their radios in Lake Michigan.



        Very low frequency RF communications is possible in salt water. The bit rate is very low.



        Fiber optic cables work well too.



        Acoustics tend to be attenuated as well.






        share|improve this answer

























          up vote
          1
          down vote










          up vote
          1
          down vote









          to be picky, RF is strongly attenuated is salt water.



          Fresh water is much less attenuated. During WW2 submerged submarines could use their radios in Lake Michigan.



          Very low frequency RF communications is possible in salt water. The bit rate is very low.



          Fiber optic cables work well too.



          Acoustics tend to be attenuated as well.






          share|improve this answer














          to be picky, RF is strongly attenuated is salt water.



          Fresh water is much less attenuated. During WW2 submerged submarines could use their radios in Lake Michigan.



          Very low frequency RF communications is possible in salt water. The bit rate is very low.



          Fiber optic cables work well too.



          Acoustics tend to be attenuated as well.







          share|improve this answer














          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer








          edited 4 hours ago

























          answered 4 hours ago









          Stanley Pawlukiewicz

          5,7882421




          5,7882421






















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              This is incredibly common in aquatic robotics. There are multiple uses for underwater acoustic communication such as data transfer, localization to a surface vessel, mission control etc.






              share|improve this answer








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                up vote
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                down vote













                This is incredibly common in aquatic robotics. There are multiple uses for underwater acoustic communication such as data transfer, localization to a surface vessel, mission control etc.






                share|improve this answer








                New contributor




                Octopuscabbage is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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                  up vote
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                  up vote
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                  This is incredibly common in aquatic robotics. There are multiple uses for underwater acoustic communication such as data transfer, localization to a surface vessel, mission control etc.






                  share|improve this answer








                  New contributor




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                  This is incredibly common in aquatic robotics. There are multiple uses for underwater acoustic communication such as data transfer, localization to a surface vessel, mission control etc.







                  share|improve this answer








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                  Octopuscabbage is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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                  share|improve this answer



                  share|improve this answer






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                  answered 3 hours ago









                  Octopuscabbage

                  111




                  111




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