Is there a balanced chess system where players of unknown skill can have an equal chance of winning?
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20
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Is there a chess system where you can make players of differing skill levels compete against each other with an equal chance to win without using different chess variations?
This system should give good players and bad players a level playing field where both of them can win.
chess-variants
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up vote
20
down vote
favorite
Is there a chess system where you can make players of differing skill levels compete against each other with an equal chance to win without using different chess variations?
This system should give good players and bad players a level playing field where both of them can win.
chess-variants
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Amit TPB is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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unedited question makes no sense. Should change unknown to different. Edit already suggested.
– Drako
yesterday
1
@Drako: The point, which I fear you may have missed, is specifically that you don't have Elo ranks or other numerical values for the players' relative skill levels. Removing that information makes the question less clear.
– Kevin
19 hours ago
1
@Kevin I did not miss that, but I feel people are missing that correct answer is NO. - and answer provided and highly up-voted is just a technical trick how to determine player skill level and is not providing system for unknown skill level players to have an equal chance of winning - instead it provides system to find out their level, that's a good mitigation but it does not change main answer - NO!
– Drako
16 hours ago
5
At random moments, switch sides.
– RemcoGerlich
15 hours ago
1
Possible duplicate of How to balance the game for uneven players
– Grade 'Eh' Bacon
11 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
20
down vote
favorite
up vote
20
down vote
favorite
Is there a chess system where you can make players of differing skill levels compete against each other with an equal chance to win without using different chess variations?
This system should give good players and bad players a level playing field where both of them can win.
chess-variants
New contributor
Amit TPB is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
Is there a chess system where you can make players of differing skill levels compete against each other with an equal chance to win without using different chess variations?
This system should give good players and bad players a level playing field where both of them can win.
chess-variants
chess-variants
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Amit TPB is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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edited yesterday
itub
3,3821826
3,3821826
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asked yesterday
Amit TPB
10713
10713
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unedited question makes no sense. Should change unknown to different. Edit already suggested.
– Drako
yesterday
1
@Drako: The point, which I fear you may have missed, is specifically that you don't have Elo ranks or other numerical values for the players' relative skill levels. Removing that information makes the question less clear.
– Kevin
19 hours ago
1
@Kevin I did not miss that, but I feel people are missing that correct answer is NO. - and answer provided and highly up-voted is just a technical trick how to determine player skill level and is not providing system for unknown skill level players to have an equal chance of winning - instead it provides system to find out their level, that's a good mitigation but it does not change main answer - NO!
– Drako
16 hours ago
5
At random moments, switch sides.
– RemcoGerlich
15 hours ago
1
Possible duplicate of How to balance the game for uneven players
– Grade 'Eh' Bacon
11 hours ago
add a comment |
unedited question makes no sense. Should change unknown to different. Edit already suggested.
– Drako
yesterday
1
@Drako: The point, which I fear you may have missed, is specifically that you don't have Elo ranks or other numerical values for the players' relative skill levels. Removing that information makes the question less clear.
– Kevin
19 hours ago
1
@Kevin I did not miss that, but I feel people are missing that correct answer is NO. - and answer provided and highly up-voted is just a technical trick how to determine player skill level and is not providing system for unknown skill level players to have an equal chance of winning - instead it provides system to find out their level, that's a good mitigation but it does not change main answer - NO!
– Drako
16 hours ago
5
At random moments, switch sides.
– RemcoGerlich
15 hours ago
1
Possible duplicate of How to balance the game for uneven players
– Grade 'Eh' Bacon
11 hours ago
unedited question makes no sense. Should change unknown to different. Edit already suggested.
– Drako
yesterday
unedited question makes no sense. Should change unknown to different. Edit already suggested.
– Drako
yesterday
1
1
@Drako: The point, which I fear you may have missed, is specifically that you don't have Elo ranks or other numerical values for the players' relative skill levels. Removing that information makes the question less clear.
– Kevin
19 hours ago
@Drako: The point, which I fear you may have missed, is specifically that you don't have Elo ranks or other numerical values for the players' relative skill levels. Removing that information makes the question less clear.
– Kevin
19 hours ago
1
1
@Kevin I did not miss that, but I feel people are missing that correct answer is NO. - and answer provided and highly up-voted is just a technical trick how to determine player skill level and is not providing system for unknown skill level players to have an equal chance of winning - instead it provides system to find out their level, that's a good mitigation but it does not change main answer - NO!
– Drako
16 hours ago
@Kevin I did not miss that, but I feel people are missing that correct answer is NO. - and answer provided and highly up-voted is just a technical trick how to determine player skill level and is not providing system for unknown skill level players to have an equal chance of winning - instead it provides system to find out their level, that's a good mitigation but it does not change main answer - NO!
– Drako
16 hours ago
5
5
At random moments, switch sides.
– RemcoGerlich
15 hours ago
At random moments, switch sides.
– RemcoGerlich
15 hours ago
1
1
Possible duplicate of How to balance the game for uneven players
– Grade 'Eh' Bacon
11 hours ago
Possible duplicate of How to balance the game for uneven players
– Grade 'Eh' Bacon
11 hours ago
add a comment |
5 Answers
5
active
oldest
votes
up vote
26
down vote
Yes.
The way I've done this in the past is to play a series of games with clocks starting with 10 minutes each on the clocks and then the rule for subsequent games that the winner of the previous game gets one minute less and the loser one minute more. This quickly stabilizes at a level where both players have good chances of winning.
10
@Drako after 10 games each will win 50% of the games.
– DonQuiKong
yesterday
19
@Drako: This is a question about the ordinary world, not programming or pure mathematics; “players of unknown skill” can reasonably be understood as assuming that the players at least know the rules and aren’t newborn babies.
– Peter LeFanu Lumsdaine
yesterday
7
Yeah, if the stronger player is much stronger then no time imbalance will do the trick. They'll just devise a strategy for every possible move while the opponent is thinking about it.
– leftaroundabout
yesterday
4
@leftaroundabout Yep. You can think on your opponent's time and it's sufficient to devise a counter for just a few of the likely best moves. Any other move will be sufficiently sub-par that a quick response will still let the stronger player win.
– David Schwartz
yesterday
11
@Drako The GM vs Baby will equalize at 50% too. Eventually, GM gets 0 time and instantly loses. Next game, in his one minute, he crushes his opponent (probably by time unless they accidentally knock a piece on the board into a legal move.)
– corsiKa
yesterday
|
show 9 more comments
up vote
4
down vote
A common way to have a large number of weak players have a chance at beating a single strong player is simultaneous chess:

image taken from http://www.chesshistory.com/winter/winter89.html
The strong player plays multiple simultaneous chess games against each of the weak players, walking from board to board. That means the attention and time of the strong player is divided among all the games while the weak players can focus their full concentrate on just their own game.
The handicap of the strong player can be adjusted by adding or removing opponents.
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Philipp is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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7
The player giving the simultaneous display usually scores over 90%. Against very weak players a GM would score 100% or very close regardless of the number of players. So, this does not answer the question.
– Brian Towers
14 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
...players of unknown skill can have an equal chance of winning...
This sounds like you want to take the player's skill out of the game which goes against the spirit and rules of chess, I would say. You could introduce elements that equalize skill differences but you may end up with a completely different kind of game, which you wanted to avoid.
For example you could introduce some kind of handicap or bonus (less time for the higher skilled, less chess pieces to begin with for the higher skilled, more chess pieces for the lower skilled (analogously to Go), other side tasks for the higher skilled) but that would require that you know the skill differences in advance or detect them while playing.
Please note, that winning chess for a lower skilled player because the higher skilled opponent had some kind of handicap is not the same as winning under otherwise equal conditions. In chess as most people play it, the definition of winning (in a statistical sense) means that you are higher skilled. Your definition of winning seems to be different (independent of skill). It would be a different kind of winning.
Indeed one could switch sides at random times as RemcoGerlich pointed out, and it would formally solve your problem, but in that case winning would be very much meaningless.
That's why I conclude that no, there is no such way. Either the stronger skilled players will win more often in chess, or the definition of winning becomes meaningless and some other kind of metric depends on the skill (like the handicap) or it's not standard chess any more.
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Trilarion is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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You are discussing why you think the question is bad not answering it. This belongs in a comment not an answer.
– Brian Towers
6 hours ago
In a handicap system, the goal of a player is not simply to win individual games against particular opponents, but to achieve the lowest handicap. Individual wins and losses are only relevant insofar as they affect the handicap.
– supercat
4 hours ago
@BrianTowers I answer the question "Is there" with "there isn't". I think this is an answer.
– Trilarion
3 hours ago
@supercat "... the goal of a player is not simply to win individual games against particular opponents, but to achieve the lowest handicap. ..." This is true. The one with the lowest handicap at the end can feel himself/herself as the true winner, but that person will also be the most skilled player on average.
– Trilarion
3 hours ago
@Trilarion: The person who is most skilled should fairly consistently finish the night with the lowest handicap, but the the numerical values of handicaps offer more quantitative measure of skill than their mere rankings would indicate.
– supercat
17 mins ago
add a comment |
up vote
-1
down vote
Give them some training positions and a time to solve them, you can get the positions from: https://lichess.org/training
This has helped me to know my level
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But they don't have an equal chance of winning; a grandmaster solves them much quicker than a club player.
– Glorfindel
10 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
-1
down vote
The ultimate handicap is teaching.
Typically we assume that the person with the winning position on the board is a winner, and the person with the losing position on the board is the loser. But this does not always have to be true. The more advanced player can always choose a different win condition. Why not? It's only a game. If the more advanced player chooses a win condition that isn't in direct opposition to the less advanced player winning, then you can actually reach a win-win situation.
You might be able to develop a clever handicap system where players have to "play their best" to beat the opponent with a specified handicap. Go actually has this, though one quickly progresses to the point where a 2 stone handicap is too much. If you do this, you quickly create a game of "you vs. nature" The game becomes a zero-sum game and it really changes how it feels.
However, if your goal is to create situations to help teach the newer player, it doesn't matter how skilled you are. You are no longer playing on the board. You are playing in the mind. And, honestly, we can all use a little practice in our quest to become a grandmaster at that.
add a comment |
5 Answers
5
active
oldest
votes
5 Answers
5
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
26
down vote
Yes.
The way I've done this in the past is to play a series of games with clocks starting with 10 minutes each on the clocks and then the rule for subsequent games that the winner of the previous game gets one minute less and the loser one minute more. This quickly stabilizes at a level where both players have good chances of winning.
10
@Drako after 10 games each will win 50% of the games.
– DonQuiKong
yesterday
19
@Drako: This is a question about the ordinary world, not programming or pure mathematics; “players of unknown skill” can reasonably be understood as assuming that the players at least know the rules and aren’t newborn babies.
– Peter LeFanu Lumsdaine
yesterday
7
Yeah, if the stronger player is much stronger then no time imbalance will do the trick. They'll just devise a strategy for every possible move while the opponent is thinking about it.
– leftaroundabout
yesterday
4
@leftaroundabout Yep. You can think on your opponent's time and it's sufficient to devise a counter for just a few of the likely best moves. Any other move will be sufficiently sub-par that a quick response will still let the stronger player win.
– David Schwartz
yesterday
11
@Drako The GM vs Baby will equalize at 50% too. Eventually, GM gets 0 time and instantly loses. Next game, in his one minute, he crushes his opponent (probably by time unless they accidentally knock a piece on the board into a legal move.)
– corsiKa
yesterday
|
show 9 more comments
up vote
26
down vote
Yes.
The way I've done this in the past is to play a series of games with clocks starting with 10 minutes each on the clocks and then the rule for subsequent games that the winner of the previous game gets one minute less and the loser one minute more. This quickly stabilizes at a level where both players have good chances of winning.
10
@Drako after 10 games each will win 50% of the games.
– DonQuiKong
yesterday
19
@Drako: This is a question about the ordinary world, not programming or pure mathematics; “players of unknown skill” can reasonably be understood as assuming that the players at least know the rules and aren’t newborn babies.
– Peter LeFanu Lumsdaine
yesterday
7
Yeah, if the stronger player is much stronger then no time imbalance will do the trick. They'll just devise a strategy for every possible move while the opponent is thinking about it.
– leftaroundabout
yesterday
4
@leftaroundabout Yep. You can think on your opponent's time and it's sufficient to devise a counter for just a few of the likely best moves. Any other move will be sufficiently sub-par that a quick response will still let the stronger player win.
– David Schwartz
yesterday
11
@Drako The GM vs Baby will equalize at 50% too. Eventually, GM gets 0 time and instantly loses. Next game, in his one minute, he crushes his opponent (probably by time unless they accidentally knock a piece on the board into a legal move.)
– corsiKa
yesterday
|
show 9 more comments
up vote
26
down vote
up vote
26
down vote
Yes.
The way I've done this in the past is to play a series of games with clocks starting with 10 minutes each on the clocks and then the rule for subsequent games that the winner of the previous game gets one minute less and the loser one minute more. This quickly stabilizes at a level where both players have good chances of winning.
Yes.
The way I've done this in the past is to play a series of games with clocks starting with 10 minutes each on the clocks and then the rule for subsequent games that the winner of the previous game gets one minute less and the loser one minute more. This quickly stabilizes at a level where both players have good chances of winning.
answered yesterday
Brian Towers
12.8k32060
12.8k32060
10
@Drako after 10 games each will win 50% of the games.
– DonQuiKong
yesterday
19
@Drako: This is a question about the ordinary world, not programming or pure mathematics; “players of unknown skill” can reasonably be understood as assuming that the players at least know the rules and aren’t newborn babies.
– Peter LeFanu Lumsdaine
yesterday
7
Yeah, if the stronger player is much stronger then no time imbalance will do the trick. They'll just devise a strategy for every possible move while the opponent is thinking about it.
– leftaroundabout
yesterday
4
@leftaroundabout Yep. You can think on your opponent's time and it's sufficient to devise a counter for just a few of the likely best moves. Any other move will be sufficiently sub-par that a quick response will still let the stronger player win.
– David Schwartz
yesterday
11
@Drako The GM vs Baby will equalize at 50% too. Eventually, GM gets 0 time and instantly loses. Next game, in his one minute, he crushes his opponent (probably by time unless they accidentally knock a piece on the board into a legal move.)
– corsiKa
yesterday
|
show 9 more comments
10
@Drako after 10 games each will win 50% of the games.
– DonQuiKong
yesterday
19
@Drako: This is a question about the ordinary world, not programming or pure mathematics; “players of unknown skill” can reasonably be understood as assuming that the players at least know the rules and aren’t newborn babies.
– Peter LeFanu Lumsdaine
yesterday
7
Yeah, if the stronger player is much stronger then no time imbalance will do the trick. They'll just devise a strategy for every possible move while the opponent is thinking about it.
– leftaroundabout
yesterday
4
@leftaroundabout Yep. You can think on your opponent's time and it's sufficient to devise a counter for just a few of the likely best moves. Any other move will be sufficiently sub-par that a quick response will still let the stronger player win.
– David Schwartz
yesterday
11
@Drako The GM vs Baby will equalize at 50% too. Eventually, GM gets 0 time and instantly loses. Next game, in his one minute, he crushes his opponent (probably by time unless they accidentally knock a piece on the board into a legal move.)
– corsiKa
yesterday
10
10
@Drako after 10 games each will win 50% of the games.
– DonQuiKong
yesterday
@Drako after 10 games each will win 50% of the games.
– DonQuiKong
yesterday
19
19
@Drako: This is a question about the ordinary world, not programming or pure mathematics; “players of unknown skill” can reasonably be understood as assuming that the players at least know the rules and aren’t newborn babies.
– Peter LeFanu Lumsdaine
yesterday
@Drako: This is a question about the ordinary world, not programming or pure mathematics; “players of unknown skill” can reasonably be understood as assuming that the players at least know the rules and aren’t newborn babies.
– Peter LeFanu Lumsdaine
yesterday
7
7
Yeah, if the stronger player is much stronger then no time imbalance will do the trick. They'll just devise a strategy for every possible move while the opponent is thinking about it.
– leftaroundabout
yesterday
Yeah, if the stronger player is much stronger then no time imbalance will do the trick. They'll just devise a strategy for every possible move while the opponent is thinking about it.
– leftaroundabout
yesterday
4
4
@leftaroundabout Yep. You can think on your opponent's time and it's sufficient to devise a counter for just a few of the likely best moves. Any other move will be sufficiently sub-par that a quick response will still let the stronger player win.
– David Schwartz
yesterday
@leftaroundabout Yep. You can think on your opponent's time and it's sufficient to devise a counter for just a few of the likely best moves. Any other move will be sufficiently sub-par that a quick response will still let the stronger player win.
– David Schwartz
yesterday
11
11
@Drako The GM vs Baby will equalize at 50% too. Eventually, GM gets 0 time and instantly loses. Next game, in his one minute, he crushes his opponent (probably by time unless they accidentally knock a piece on the board into a legal move.)
– corsiKa
yesterday
@Drako The GM vs Baby will equalize at 50% too. Eventually, GM gets 0 time and instantly loses. Next game, in his one minute, he crushes his opponent (probably by time unless they accidentally knock a piece on the board into a legal move.)
– corsiKa
yesterday
|
show 9 more comments
up vote
4
down vote
A common way to have a large number of weak players have a chance at beating a single strong player is simultaneous chess:

image taken from http://www.chesshistory.com/winter/winter89.html
The strong player plays multiple simultaneous chess games against each of the weak players, walking from board to board. That means the attention and time of the strong player is divided among all the games while the weak players can focus their full concentrate on just their own game.
The handicap of the strong player can be adjusted by adding or removing opponents.
New contributor
Philipp is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
7
The player giving the simultaneous display usually scores over 90%. Against very weak players a GM would score 100% or very close regardless of the number of players. So, this does not answer the question.
– Brian Towers
14 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
4
down vote
A common way to have a large number of weak players have a chance at beating a single strong player is simultaneous chess:

image taken from http://www.chesshistory.com/winter/winter89.html
The strong player plays multiple simultaneous chess games against each of the weak players, walking from board to board. That means the attention and time of the strong player is divided among all the games while the weak players can focus their full concentrate on just their own game.
The handicap of the strong player can be adjusted by adding or removing opponents.
New contributor
Philipp is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
7
The player giving the simultaneous display usually scores over 90%. Against very weak players a GM would score 100% or very close regardless of the number of players. So, this does not answer the question.
– Brian Towers
14 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
4
down vote
up vote
4
down vote
A common way to have a large number of weak players have a chance at beating a single strong player is simultaneous chess:

image taken from http://www.chesshistory.com/winter/winter89.html
The strong player plays multiple simultaneous chess games against each of the weak players, walking from board to board. That means the attention and time of the strong player is divided among all the games while the weak players can focus their full concentrate on just their own game.
The handicap of the strong player can be adjusted by adding or removing opponents.
New contributor
Philipp is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
A common way to have a large number of weak players have a chance at beating a single strong player is simultaneous chess:

image taken from http://www.chesshistory.com/winter/winter89.html
The strong player plays multiple simultaneous chess games against each of the weak players, walking from board to board. That means the attention and time of the strong player is divided among all the games while the weak players can focus their full concentrate on just their own game.
The handicap of the strong player can be adjusted by adding or removing opponents.
New contributor
Philipp is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
edited 14 hours ago
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answered 15 hours ago
Philipp
1674
1674
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Philipp is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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New contributor
Philipp is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
Philipp is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
7
The player giving the simultaneous display usually scores over 90%. Against very weak players a GM would score 100% or very close regardless of the number of players. So, this does not answer the question.
– Brian Towers
14 hours ago
add a comment |
7
The player giving the simultaneous display usually scores over 90%. Against very weak players a GM would score 100% or very close regardless of the number of players. So, this does not answer the question.
– Brian Towers
14 hours ago
7
7
The player giving the simultaneous display usually scores over 90%. Against very weak players a GM would score 100% or very close regardless of the number of players. So, this does not answer the question.
– Brian Towers
14 hours ago
The player giving the simultaneous display usually scores over 90%. Against very weak players a GM would score 100% or very close regardless of the number of players. So, this does not answer the question.
– Brian Towers
14 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
...players of unknown skill can have an equal chance of winning...
This sounds like you want to take the player's skill out of the game which goes against the spirit and rules of chess, I would say. You could introduce elements that equalize skill differences but you may end up with a completely different kind of game, which you wanted to avoid.
For example you could introduce some kind of handicap or bonus (less time for the higher skilled, less chess pieces to begin with for the higher skilled, more chess pieces for the lower skilled (analogously to Go), other side tasks for the higher skilled) but that would require that you know the skill differences in advance or detect them while playing.
Please note, that winning chess for a lower skilled player because the higher skilled opponent had some kind of handicap is not the same as winning under otherwise equal conditions. In chess as most people play it, the definition of winning (in a statistical sense) means that you are higher skilled. Your definition of winning seems to be different (independent of skill). It would be a different kind of winning.
Indeed one could switch sides at random times as RemcoGerlich pointed out, and it would formally solve your problem, but in that case winning would be very much meaningless.
That's why I conclude that no, there is no such way. Either the stronger skilled players will win more often in chess, or the definition of winning becomes meaningless and some other kind of metric depends on the skill (like the handicap) or it's not standard chess any more.
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Trilarion is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
You are discussing why you think the question is bad not answering it. This belongs in a comment not an answer.
– Brian Towers
6 hours ago
In a handicap system, the goal of a player is not simply to win individual games against particular opponents, but to achieve the lowest handicap. Individual wins and losses are only relevant insofar as they affect the handicap.
– supercat
4 hours ago
@BrianTowers I answer the question "Is there" with "there isn't". I think this is an answer.
– Trilarion
3 hours ago
@supercat "... the goal of a player is not simply to win individual games against particular opponents, but to achieve the lowest handicap. ..." This is true. The one with the lowest handicap at the end can feel himself/herself as the true winner, but that person will also be the most skilled player on average.
– Trilarion
3 hours ago
@Trilarion: The person who is most skilled should fairly consistently finish the night with the lowest handicap, but the the numerical values of handicaps offer more quantitative measure of skill than their mere rankings would indicate.
– supercat
17 mins ago
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
...players of unknown skill can have an equal chance of winning...
This sounds like you want to take the player's skill out of the game which goes against the spirit and rules of chess, I would say. You could introduce elements that equalize skill differences but you may end up with a completely different kind of game, which you wanted to avoid.
For example you could introduce some kind of handicap or bonus (less time for the higher skilled, less chess pieces to begin with for the higher skilled, more chess pieces for the lower skilled (analogously to Go), other side tasks for the higher skilled) but that would require that you know the skill differences in advance or detect them while playing.
Please note, that winning chess for a lower skilled player because the higher skilled opponent had some kind of handicap is not the same as winning under otherwise equal conditions. In chess as most people play it, the definition of winning (in a statistical sense) means that you are higher skilled. Your definition of winning seems to be different (independent of skill). It would be a different kind of winning.
Indeed one could switch sides at random times as RemcoGerlich pointed out, and it would formally solve your problem, but in that case winning would be very much meaningless.
That's why I conclude that no, there is no such way. Either the stronger skilled players will win more often in chess, or the definition of winning becomes meaningless and some other kind of metric depends on the skill (like the handicap) or it's not standard chess any more.
New contributor
Trilarion is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
You are discussing why you think the question is bad not answering it. This belongs in a comment not an answer.
– Brian Towers
6 hours ago
In a handicap system, the goal of a player is not simply to win individual games against particular opponents, but to achieve the lowest handicap. Individual wins and losses are only relevant insofar as they affect the handicap.
– supercat
4 hours ago
@BrianTowers I answer the question "Is there" with "there isn't". I think this is an answer.
– Trilarion
3 hours ago
@supercat "... the goal of a player is not simply to win individual games against particular opponents, but to achieve the lowest handicap. ..." This is true. The one with the lowest handicap at the end can feel himself/herself as the true winner, but that person will also be the most skilled player on average.
– Trilarion
3 hours ago
@Trilarion: The person who is most skilled should fairly consistently finish the night with the lowest handicap, but the the numerical values of handicaps offer more quantitative measure of skill than their mere rankings would indicate.
– supercat
17 mins ago
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
up vote
0
down vote
...players of unknown skill can have an equal chance of winning...
This sounds like you want to take the player's skill out of the game which goes against the spirit and rules of chess, I would say. You could introduce elements that equalize skill differences but you may end up with a completely different kind of game, which you wanted to avoid.
For example you could introduce some kind of handicap or bonus (less time for the higher skilled, less chess pieces to begin with for the higher skilled, more chess pieces for the lower skilled (analogously to Go), other side tasks for the higher skilled) but that would require that you know the skill differences in advance or detect them while playing.
Please note, that winning chess for a lower skilled player because the higher skilled opponent had some kind of handicap is not the same as winning under otherwise equal conditions. In chess as most people play it, the definition of winning (in a statistical sense) means that you are higher skilled. Your definition of winning seems to be different (independent of skill). It would be a different kind of winning.
Indeed one could switch sides at random times as RemcoGerlich pointed out, and it would formally solve your problem, but in that case winning would be very much meaningless.
That's why I conclude that no, there is no such way. Either the stronger skilled players will win more often in chess, or the definition of winning becomes meaningless and some other kind of metric depends on the skill (like the handicap) or it's not standard chess any more.
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...players of unknown skill can have an equal chance of winning...
This sounds like you want to take the player's skill out of the game which goes against the spirit and rules of chess, I would say. You could introduce elements that equalize skill differences but you may end up with a completely different kind of game, which you wanted to avoid.
For example you could introduce some kind of handicap or bonus (less time for the higher skilled, less chess pieces to begin with for the higher skilled, more chess pieces for the lower skilled (analogously to Go), other side tasks for the higher skilled) but that would require that you know the skill differences in advance or detect them while playing.
Please note, that winning chess for a lower skilled player because the higher skilled opponent had some kind of handicap is not the same as winning under otherwise equal conditions. In chess as most people play it, the definition of winning (in a statistical sense) means that you are higher skilled. Your definition of winning seems to be different (independent of skill). It would be a different kind of winning.
Indeed one could switch sides at random times as RemcoGerlich pointed out, and it would formally solve your problem, but in that case winning would be very much meaningless.
That's why I conclude that no, there is no such way. Either the stronger skilled players will win more often in chess, or the definition of winning becomes meaningless and some other kind of metric depends on the skill (like the handicap) or it's not standard chess any more.
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answered 9 hours ago
Trilarion
1093
1093
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You are discussing why you think the question is bad not answering it. This belongs in a comment not an answer.
– Brian Towers
6 hours ago
In a handicap system, the goal of a player is not simply to win individual games against particular opponents, but to achieve the lowest handicap. Individual wins and losses are only relevant insofar as they affect the handicap.
– supercat
4 hours ago
@BrianTowers I answer the question "Is there" with "there isn't". I think this is an answer.
– Trilarion
3 hours ago
@supercat "... the goal of a player is not simply to win individual games against particular opponents, but to achieve the lowest handicap. ..." This is true. The one with the lowest handicap at the end can feel himself/herself as the true winner, but that person will also be the most skilled player on average.
– Trilarion
3 hours ago
@Trilarion: The person who is most skilled should fairly consistently finish the night with the lowest handicap, but the the numerical values of handicaps offer more quantitative measure of skill than their mere rankings would indicate.
– supercat
17 mins ago
add a comment |
You are discussing why you think the question is bad not answering it. This belongs in a comment not an answer.
– Brian Towers
6 hours ago
In a handicap system, the goal of a player is not simply to win individual games against particular opponents, but to achieve the lowest handicap. Individual wins and losses are only relevant insofar as they affect the handicap.
– supercat
4 hours ago
@BrianTowers I answer the question "Is there" with "there isn't". I think this is an answer.
– Trilarion
3 hours ago
@supercat "... the goal of a player is not simply to win individual games against particular opponents, but to achieve the lowest handicap. ..." This is true. The one with the lowest handicap at the end can feel himself/herself as the true winner, but that person will also be the most skilled player on average.
– Trilarion
3 hours ago
@Trilarion: The person who is most skilled should fairly consistently finish the night with the lowest handicap, but the the numerical values of handicaps offer more quantitative measure of skill than their mere rankings would indicate.
– supercat
17 mins ago
You are discussing why you think the question is bad not answering it. This belongs in a comment not an answer.
– Brian Towers
6 hours ago
You are discussing why you think the question is bad not answering it. This belongs in a comment not an answer.
– Brian Towers
6 hours ago
In a handicap system, the goal of a player is not simply to win individual games against particular opponents, but to achieve the lowest handicap. Individual wins and losses are only relevant insofar as they affect the handicap.
– supercat
4 hours ago
In a handicap system, the goal of a player is not simply to win individual games against particular opponents, but to achieve the lowest handicap. Individual wins and losses are only relevant insofar as they affect the handicap.
– supercat
4 hours ago
@BrianTowers I answer the question "Is there" with "there isn't". I think this is an answer.
– Trilarion
3 hours ago
@BrianTowers I answer the question "Is there" with "there isn't". I think this is an answer.
– Trilarion
3 hours ago
@supercat "... the goal of a player is not simply to win individual games against particular opponents, but to achieve the lowest handicap. ..." This is true. The one with the lowest handicap at the end can feel himself/herself as the true winner, but that person will also be the most skilled player on average.
– Trilarion
3 hours ago
@supercat "... the goal of a player is not simply to win individual games against particular opponents, but to achieve the lowest handicap. ..." This is true. The one with the lowest handicap at the end can feel himself/herself as the true winner, but that person will also be the most skilled player on average.
– Trilarion
3 hours ago
@Trilarion: The person who is most skilled should fairly consistently finish the night with the lowest handicap, but the the numerical values of handicaps offer more quantitative measure of skill than their mere rankings would indicate.
– supercat
17 mins ago
@Trilarion: The person who is most skilled should fairly consistently finish the night with the lowest handicap, but the the numerical values of handicaps offer more quantitative measure of skill than their mere rankings would indicate.
– supercat
17 mins ago
add a comment |
up vote
-1
down vote
Give them some training positions and a time to solve them, you can get the positions from: https://lichess.org/training
This has helped me to know my level
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But they don't have an equal chance of winning; a grandmaster solves them much quicker than a club player.
– Glorfindel
10 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
-1
down vote
Give them some training positions and a time to solve them, you can get the positions from: https://lichess.org/training
This has helped me to know my level
New contributor
chesser is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
But they don't have an equal chance of winning; a grandmaster solves them much quicker than a club player.
– Glorfindel
10 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
-1
down vote
up vote
-1
down vote
Give them some training positions and a time to solve them, you can get the positions from: https://lichess.org/training
This has helped me to know my level
New contributor
chesser is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
Give them some training positions and a time to solve them, you can get the positions from: https://lichess.org/training
This has helped me to know my level
New contributor
chesser is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
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answered 10 hours ago
chesser
1
1
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But they don't have an equal chance of winning; a grandmaster solves them much quicker than a club player.
– Glorfindel
10 hours ago
add a comment |
But they don't have an equal chance of winning; a grandmaster solves them much quicker than a club player.
– Glorfindel
10 hours ago
But they don't have an equal chance of winning; a grandmaster solves them much quicker than a club player.
– Glorfindel
10 hours ago
But they don't have an equal chance of winning; a grandmaster solves them much quicker than a club player.
– Glorfindel
10 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
-1
down vote
The ultimate handicap is teaching.
Typically we assume that the person with the winning position on the board is a winner, and the person with the losing position on the board is the loser. But this does not always have to be true. The more advanced player can always choose a different win condition. Why not? It's only a game. If the more advanced player chooses a win condition that isn't in direct opposition to the less advanced player winning, then you can actually reach a win-win situation.
You might be able to develop a clever handicap system where players have to "play their best" to beat the opponent with a specified handicap. Go actually has this, though one quickly progresses to the point where a 2 stone handicap is too much. If you do this, you quickly create a game of "you vs. nature" The game becomes a zero-sum game and it really changes how it feels.
However, if your goal is to create situations to help teach the newer player, it doesn't matter how skilled you are. You are no longer playing on the board. You are playing in the mind. And, honestly, we can all use a little practice in our quest to become a grandmaster at that.
add a comment |
up vote
-1
down vote
The ultimate handicap is teaching.
Typically we assume that the person with the winning position on the board is a winner, and the person with the losing position on the board is the loser. But this does not always have to be true. The more advanced player can always choose a different win condition. Why not? It's only a game. If the more advanced player chooses a win condition that isn't in direct opposition to the less advanced player winning, then you can actually reach a win-win situation.
You might be able to develop a clever handicap system where players have to "play their best" to beat the opponent with a specified handicap. Go actually has this, though one quickly progresses to the point where a 2 stone handicap is too much. If you do this, you quickly create a game of "you vs. nature" The game becomes a zero-sum game and it really changes how it feels.
However, if your goal is to create situations to help teach the newer player, it doesn't matter how skilled you are. You are no longer playing on the board. You are playing in the mind. And, honestly, we can all use a little practice in our quest to become a grandmaster at that.
add a comment |
up vote
-1
down vote
up vote
-1
down vote
The ultimate handicap is teaching.
Typically we assume that the person with the winning position on the board is a winner, and the person with the losing position on the board is the loser. But this does not always have to be true. The more advanced player can always choose a different win condition. Why not? It's only a game. If the more advanced player chooses a win condition that isn't in direct opposition to the less advanced player winning, then you can actually reach a win-win situation.
You might be able to develop a clever handicap system where players have to "play their best" to beat the opponent with a specified handicap. Go actually has this, though one quickly progresses to the point where a 2 stone handicap is too much. If you do this, you quickly create a game of "you vs. nature" The game becomes a zero-sum game and it really changes how it feels.
However, if your goal is to create situations to help teach the newer player, it doesn't matter how skilled you are. You are no longer playing on the board. You are playing in the mind. And, honestly, we can all use a little practice in our quest to become a grandmaster at that.
The ultimate handicap is teaching.
Typically we assume that the person with the winning position on the board is a winner, and the person with the losing position on the board is the loser. But this does not always have to be true. The more advanced player can always choose a different win condition. Why not? It's only a game. If the more advanced player chooses a win condition that isn't in direct opposition to the less advanced player winning, then you can actually reach a win-win situation.
You might be able to develop a clever handicap system where players have to "play their best" to beat the opponent with a specified handicap. Go actually has this, though one quickly progresses to the point where a 2 stone handicap is too much. If you do this, you quickly create a game of "you vs. nature" The game becomes a zero-sum game and it really changes how it feels.
However, if your goal is to create situations to help teach the newer player, it doesn't matter how skilled you are. You are no longer playing on the board. You are playing in the mind. And, honestly, we can all use a little practice in our quest to become a grandmaster at that.
answered 58 mins ago
Cort Ammon
62233
62233
add a comment |
add a comment |
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Amit TPB is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
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unedited question makes no sense. Should change unknown to different. Edit already suggested.
– Drako
yesterday
1
@Drako: The point, which I fear you may have missed, is specifically that you don't have Elo ranks or other numerical values for the players' relative skill levels. Removing that information makes the question less clear.
– Kevin
19 hours ago
1
@Kevin I did not miss that, but I feel people are missing that correct answer is NO. - and answer provided and highly up-voted is just a technical trick how to determine player skill level and is not providing system for unknown skill level players to have an equal chance of winning - instead it provides system to find out their level, that's a good mitigation but it does not change main answer - NO!
– Drako
16 hours ago
5
At random moments, switch sides.
– RemcoGerlich
15 hours ago
1
Possible duplicate of How to balance the game for uneven players
– Grade 'Eh' Bacon
11 hours ago