Confusion about implicit differentiation $frac{dy}{dx}$











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Today I learnt about implicit differentiation using this:



$frac{d}{dx}(f)$ = $frac{df}{dy} times frac{dy}{dx}$



I don't understand when doing implicit differentiation how the d/dy part works for y terms:



$frac{d(y^2)}{dx} = frac{d(y^2)}{dy}timesfrac{dy}{dx}=2yfrac{dy}{dx}$



Why is the derivative of $y^2$ with respect to $y$, $2y$? Do you assume it's a function of something else?
And similarly if you apply this same formula to an $x$ term (even though its not needed) you get:



$frac{d(x^2)}{dx} =frac{d(x^2)}{dy}timesfrac{dy}{dx}$



How does that simplify to the $2x$ I know it is?



Thanks










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  • What is $y$ in your last differentiation? Take $y=x$ then it works perfectly.
    – A.Γ.
    13 hours ago












  • @A.Γ. Its just an example, I'm not really sure, I thought of it as $y=x^2$ and $y=f$and did it using the formula at the top.
    – DevinJC
    13 hours ago












  • If $y=x^2$ it still works perfectly.
    – A.Γ.
    13 hours ago















up vote
2
down vote

favorite












Today I learnt about implicit differentiation using this:



$frac{d}{dx}(f)$ = $frac{df}{dy} times frac{dy}{dx}$



I don't understand when doing implicit differentiation how the d/dy part works for y terms:



$frac{d(y^2)}{dx} = frac{d(y^2)}{dy}timesfrac{dy}{dx}=2yfrac{dy}{dx}$



Why is the derivative of $y^2$ with respect to $y$, $2y$? Do you assume it's a function of something else?
And similarly if you apply this same formula to an $x$ term (even though its not needed) you get:



$frac{d(x^2)}{dx} =frac{d(x^2)}{dy}timesfrac{dy}{dx}$



How does that simplify to the $2x$ I know it is?



Thanks










share|cite|improve this question
























  • What is $y$ in your last differentiation? Take $y=x$ then it works perfectly.
    – A.Γ.
    13 hours ago












  • @A.Γ. Its just an example, I'm not really sure, I thought of it as $y=x^2$ and $y=f$and did it using the formula at the top.
    – DevinJC
    13 hours ago












  • If $y=x^2$ it still works perfectly.
    – A.Γ.
    13 hours ago













up vote
2
down vote

favorite









up vote
2
down vote

favorite











Today I learnt about implicit differentiation using this:



$frac{d}{dx}(f)$ = $frac{df}{dy} times frac{dy}{dx}$



I don't understand when doing implicit differentiation how the d/dy part works for y terms:



$frac{d(y^2)}{dx} = frac{d(y^2)}{dy}timesfrac{dy}{dx}=2yfrac{dy}{dx}$



Why is the derivative of $y^2$ with respect to $y$, $2y$? Do you assume it's a function of something else?
And similarly if you apply this same formula to an $x$ term (even though its not needed) you get:



$frac{d(x^2)}{dx} =frac{d(x^2)}{dy}timesfrac{dy}{dx}$



How does that simplify to the $2x$ I know it is?



Thanks










share|cite|improve this question















Today I learnt about implicit differentiation using this:



$frac{d}{dx}(f)$ = $frac{df}{dy} times frac{dy}{dx}$



I don't understand when doing implicit differentiation how the d/dy part works for y terms:



$frac{d(y^2)}{dx} = frac{d(y^2)}{dy}timesfrac{dy}{dx}=2yfrac{dy}{dx}$



Why is the derivative of $y^2$ with respect to $y$, $2y$? Do you assume it's a function of something else?
And similarly if you apply this same formula to an $x$ term (even though its not needed) you get:



$frac{d(x^2)}{dx} =frac{d(x^2)}{dy}timesfrac{dy}{dx}$



How does that simplify to the $2x$ I know it is?



Thanks







differential-equations implicit-differentiation






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share|cite|improve this question













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edited 12 hours ago









WesleyGroupshaveFeelingsToo

1,002321




1,002321










asked 13 hours ago









DevinJC

936




936












  • What is $y$ in your last differentiation? Take $y=x$ then it works perfectly.
    – A.Γ.
    13 hours ago












  • @A.Γ. Its just an example, I'm not really sure, I thought of it as $y=x^2$ and $y=f$and did it using the formula at the top.
    – DevinJC
    13 hours ago












  • If $y=x^2$ it still works perfectly.
    – A.Γ.
    13 hours ago


















  • What is $y$ in your last differentiation? Take $y=x$ then it works perfectly.
    – A.Γ.
    13 hours ago












  • @A.Γ. Its just an example, I'm not really sure, I thought of it as $y=x^2$ and $y=f$and did it using the formula at the top.
    – DevinJC
    13 hours ago












  • If $y=x^2$ it still works perfectly.
    – A.Γ.
    13 hours ago
















What is $y$ in your last differentiation? Take $y=x$ then it works perfectly.
– A.Γ.
13 hours ago






What is $y$ in your last differentiation? Take $y=x$ then it works perfectly.
– A.Γ.
13 hours ago














@A.Γ. Its just an example, I'm not really sure, I thought of it as $y=x^2$ and $y=f$and did it using the formula at the top.
– DevinJC
13 hours ago






@A.Γ. Its just an example, I'm not really sure, I thought of it as $y=x^2$ and $y=f$and did it using the formula at the top.
– DevinJC
13 hours ago














If $y=x^2$ it still works perfectly.
– A.Γ.
13 hours ago




If $y=x^2$ it still works perfectly.
– A.Γ.
13 hours ago










3 Answers
3






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oldest

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up vote
2
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accepted










Yes, here they assume that $y$ is a function of something else.



Whenever we apply implicit differentiation like with $frac{dy^2(x)}{dx}$, we sort of first forget it is a function of something else, say $x$, we just derive it using the chain rule and then we need to correct for this via the familiar additional factor:



$$ frac{d y^2(x)}{d x} =2 y(x) cdotfrac{d y(x) }{dx}$$



Actually implict differentiation often boils down to just using the chain rule. Notice that if $y$ is not a function of $x$, we get that $frac{ d y}{dx} =0$ and the equation just reads $0=0$.



For your second case where you state:
$$frac{d(x^2)}{dx} =frac{d(x^2)}{dy}timesfrac{dy}{dx}$$
We could call $y=x^2$ because you really need to tell the reader what this new variable $y$ is in relation to the old variable $x$, else the derivative could be anything. We then get:
$$ frac{dy}{dx} =frac{dy}{dy}timesfrac{d x^2 }{dx}= 1 cdot 2x $$



In general we use implicit differentiation when there is some complicated variable dependence and you cannot directly express some variable explicitly in terms of the other. An example of such an equation would be:
$$x+ x^2 + 3y^2 + y^3 = 6$$
Using implicit differentiation we could construct the tangent line for $(x,y)=(1,1)$



We would get:
$$1+ 2x + 6y frac{dy}{dx} + 3 y^2 frac{dy}{dx} = 0$$
Now we plug in the value at (1,1) to get:
$$1+ 2 + 6 frac{dy}{dx} + 3 frac{dy}{dx} = 0$$
Or after rearranging:
$$9 frac{dy}{dx} = -3 rightarrow frac{dy}{dx}= -frac{1}{3}$$
We get the tangent line $y= -frac{1}{3}(x-1) +1$






share|cite|improve this answer























  • Thanks a lot this really helped.
    – DevinJC
    13 hours ago










  • any time ;) we're all here to help
    – WesleyGroupshaveFeelingsToo
    13 hours ago


















up vote
4
down vote













You implicitly utilize the formula of derivative of a composite functions or a chain rule:
$$
f = y(x)^2, qquadfrac{df}{dx}=frac{d(y^2)}{dx},\
f=g(y(x)),qquad g(y)=y^2,\
frac{d}{dx}g(y(x))=frac{dg(y(x))}{dy}frac{dy(x)}{dx}=(2y(x))frac{dy}{dx}
$$






share|cite|improve this answer




























    up vote
    2
    down vote













    The derivative of $y^2$ with respect to $y$ is $2y$ because of the definition of derivative:
    $$lim_{h to 0} frac{(y+h)^2-y^2}{h} = 2y.$$



    In the last expression you write
    $$frac{d(x^2)}{dx} = frac{d(x^2)}{dy}frac{dy}{dx}$$
    but this is meaningful only when $x$ is a function of $y$. So assume $x = f(y)$. Then, by the first equation you mention in the question, the right hand side is
    $$frac{d(f^2)}{dy}frac{dy}{dx} = 2f(y)f'(y)frac{dy}{dx} = 2xf'(y)frac{dy}{dx} = 2xfrac{dx}{dy}frac{dy}{dx} = 2xfrac{dx}{dx} = 2x.$$






    share|cite|improve this answer





















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      3 Answers
      3






      active

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      3 Answers
      3






      active

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      active

      oldest

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      active

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      up vote
      2
      down vote



      accepted










      Yes, here they assume that $y$ is a function of something else.



      Whenever we apply implicit differentiation like with $frac{dy^2(x)}{dx}$, we sort of first forget it is a function of something else, say $x$, we just derive it using the chain rule and then we need to correct for this via the familiar additional factor:



      $$ frac{d y^2(x)}{d x} =2 y(x) cdotfrac{d y(x) }{dx}$$



      Actually implict differentiation often boils down to just using the chain rule. Notice that if $y$ is not a function of $x$, we get that $frac{ d y}{dx} =0$ and the equation just reads $0=0$.



      For your second case where you state:
      $$frac{d(x^2)}{dx} =frac{d(x^2)}{dy}timesfrac{dy}{dx}$$
      We could call $y=x^2$ because you really need to tell the reader what this new variable $y$ is in relation to the old variable $x$, else the derivative could be anything. We then get:
      $$ frac{dy}{dx} =frac{dy}{dy}timesfrac{d x^2 }{dx}= 1 cdot 2x $$



      In general we use implicit differentiation when there is some complicated variable dependence and you cannot directly express some variable explicitly in terms of the other. An example of such an equation would be:
      $$x+ x^2 + 3y^2 + y^3 = 6$$
      Using implicit differentiation we could construct the tangent line for $(x,y)=(1,1)$



      We would get:
      $$1+ 2x + 6y frac{dy}{dx} + 3 y^2 frac{dy}{dx} = 0$$
      Now we plug in the value at (1,1) to get:
      $$1+ 2 + 6 frac{dy}{dx} + 3 frac{dy}{dx} = 0$$
      Or after rearranging:
      $$9 frac{dy}{dx} = -3 rightarrow frac{dy}{dx}= -frac{1}{3}$$
      We get the tangent line $y= -frac{1}{3}(x-1) +1$






      share|cite|improve this answer























      • Thanks a lot this really helped.
        – DevinJC
        13 hours ago










      • any time ;) we're all here to help
        – WesleyGroupshaveFeelingsToo
        13 hours ago















      up vote
      2
      down vote



      accepted










      Yes, here they assume that $y$ is a function of something else.



      Whenever we apply implicit differentiation like with $frac{dy^2(x)}{dx}$, we sort of first forget it is a function of something else, say $x$, we just derive it using the chain rule and then we need to correct for this via the familiar additional factor:



      $$ frac{d y^2(x)}{d x} =2 y(x) cdotfrac{d y(x) }{dx}$$



      Actually implict differentiation often boils down to just using the chain rule. Notice that if $y$ is not a function of $x$, we get that $frac{ d y}{dx} =0$ and the equation just reads $0=0$.



      For your second case where you state:
      $$frac{d(x^2)}{dx} =frac{d(x^2)}{dy}timesfrac{dy}{dx}$$
      We could call $y=x^2$ because you really need to tell the reader what this new variable $y$ is in relation to the old variable $x$, else the derivative could be anything. We then get:
      $$ frac{dy}{dx} =frac{dy}{dy}timesfrac{d x^2 }{dx}= 1 cdot 2x $$



      In general we use implicit differentiation when there is some complicated variable dependence and you cannot directly express some variable explicitly in terms of the other. An example of such an equation would be:
      $$x+ x^2 + 3y^2 + y^3 = 6$$
      Using implicit differentiation we could construct the tangent line for $(x,y)=(1,1)$



      We would get:
      $$1+ 2x + 6y frac{dy}{dx} + 3 y^2 frac{dy}{dx} = 0$$
      Now we plug in the value at (1,1) to get:
      $$1+ 2 + 6 frac{dy}{dx} + 3 frac{dy}{dx} = 0$$
      Or after rearranging:
      $$9 frac{dy}{dx} = -3 rightarrow frac{dy}{dx}= -frac{1}{3}$$
      We get the tangent line $y= -frac{1}{3}(x-1) +1$






      share|cite|improve this answer























      • Thanks a lot this really helped.
        – DevinJC
        13 hours ago










      • any time ;) we're all here to help
        – WesleyGroupshaveFeelingsToo
        13 hours ago













      up vote
      2
      down vote



      accepted







      up vote
      2
      down vote



      accepted






      Yes, here they assume that $y$ is a function of something else.



      Whenever we apply implicit differentiation like with $frac{dy^2(x)}{dx}$, we sort of first forget it is a function of something else, say $x$, we just derive it using the chain rule and then we need to correct for this via the familiar additional factor:



      $$ frac{d y^2(x)}{d x} =2 y(x) cdotfrac{d y(x) }{dx}$$



      Actually implict differentiation often boils down to just using the chain rule. Notice that if $y$ is not a function of $x$, we get that $frac{ d y}{dx} =0$ and the equation just reads $0=0$.



      For your second case where you state:
      $$frac{d(x^2)}{dx} =frac{d(x^2)}{dy}timesfrac{dy}{dx}$$
      We could call $y=x^2$ because you really need to tell the reader what this new variable $y$ is in relation to the old variable $x$, else the derivative could be anything. We then get:
      $$ frac{dy}{dx} =frac{dy}{dy}timesfrac{d x^2 }{dx}= 1 cdot 2x $$



      In general we use implicit differentiation when there is some complicated variable dependence and you cannot directly express some variable explicitly in terms of the other. An example of such an equation would be:
      $$x+ x^2 + 3y^2 + y^3 = 6$$
      Using implicit differentiation we could construct the tangent line for $(x,y)=(1,1)$



      We would get:
      $$1+ 2x + 6y frac{dy}{dx} + 3 y^2 frac{dy}{dx} = 0$$
      Now we plug in the value at (1,1) to get:
      $$1+ 2 + 6 frac{dy}{dx} + 3 frac{dy}{dx} = 0$$
      Or after rearranging:
      $$9 frac{dy}{dx} = -3 rightarrow frac{dy}{dx}= -frac{1}{3}$$
      We get the tangent line $y= -frac{1}{3}(x-1) +1$






      share|cite|improve this answer














      Yes, here they assume that $y$ is a function of something else.



      Whenever we apply implicit differentiation like with $frac{dy^2(x)}{dx}$, we sort of first forget it is a function of something else, say $x$, we just derive it using the chain rule and then we need to correct for this via the familiar additional factor:



      $$ frac{d y^2(x)}{d x} =2 y(x) cdotfrac{d y(x) }{dx}$$



      Actually implict differentiation often boils down to just using the chain rule. Notice that if $y$ is not a function of $x$, we get that $frac{ d y}{dx} =0$ and the equation just reads $0=0$.



      For your second case where you state:
      $$frac{d(x^2)}{dx} =frac{d(x^2)}{dy}timesfrac{dy}{dx}$$
      We could call $y=x^2$ because you really need to tell the reader what this new variable $y$ is in relation to the old variable $x$, else the derivative could be anything. We then get:
      $$ frac{dy}{dx} =frac{dy}{dy}timesfrac{d x^2 }{dx}= 1 cdot 2x $$



      In general we use implicit differentiation when there is some complicated variable dependence and you cannot directly express some variable explicitly in terms of the other. An example of such an equation would be:
      $$x+ x^2 + 3y^2 + y^3 = 6$$
      Using implicit differentiation we could construct the tangent line for $(x,y)=(1,1)$



      We would get:
      $$1+ 2x + 6y frac{dy}{dx} + 3 y^2 frac{dy}{dx} = 0$$
      Now we plug in the value at (1,1) to get:
      $$1+ 2 + 6 frac{dy}{dx} + 3 frac{dy}{dx} = 0$$
      Or after rearranging:
      $$9 frac{dy}{dx} = -3 rightarrow frac{dy}{dx}= -frac{1}{3}$$
      We get the tangent line $y= -frac{1}{3}(x-1) +1$







      share|cite|improve this answer














      share|cite|improve this answer



      share|cite|improve this answer








      edited 13 hours ago


























      community wiki





      4 revs
      WesleyGroupshaveFeelingsToo













      • Thanks a lot this really helped.
        – DevinJC
        13 hours ago










      • any time ;) we're all here to help
        – WesleyGroupshaveFeelingsToo
        13 hours ago


















      • Thanks a lot this really helped.
        – DevinJC
        13 hours ago










      • any time ;) we're all here to help
        – WesleyGroupshaveFeelingsToo
        13 hours ago
















      Thanks a lot this really helped.
      – DevinJC
      13 hours ago




      Thanks a lot this really helped.
      – DevinJC
      13 hours ago












      any time ;) we're all here to help
      – WesleyGroupshaveFeelingsToo
      13 hours ago




      any time ;) we're all here to help
      – WesleyGroupshaveFeelingsToo
      13 hours ago










      up vote
      4
      down vote













      You implicitly utilize the formula of derivative of a composite functions or a chain rule:
      $$
      f = y(x)^2, qquadfrac{df}{dx}=frac{d(y^2)}{dx},\
      f=g(y(x)),qquad g(y)=y^2,\
      frac{d}{dx}g(y(x))=frac{dg(y(x))}{dy}frac{dy(x)}{dx}=(2y(x))frac{dy}{dx}
      $$






      share|cite|improve this answer

























        up vote
        4
        down vote













        You implicitly utilize the formula of derivative of a composite functions or a chain rule:
        $$
        f = y(x)^2, qquadfrac{df}{dx}=frac{d(y^2)}{dx},\
        f=g(y(x)),qquad g(y)=y^2,\
        frac{d}{dx}g(y(x))=frac{dg(y(x))}{dy}frac{dy(x)}{dx}=(2y(x))frac{dy}{dx}
        $$






        share|cite|improve this answer























          up vote
          4
          down vote










          up vote
          4
          down vote









          You implicitly utilize the formula of derivative of a composite functions or a chain rule:
          $$
          f = y(x)^2, qquadfrac{df}{dx}=frac{d(y^2)}{dx},\
          f=g(y(x)),qquad g(y)=y^2,\
          frac{d}{dx}g(y(x))=frac{dg(y(x))}{dy}frac{dy(x)}{dx}=(2y(x))frac{dy}{dx}
          $$






          share|cite|improve this answer












          You implicitly utilize the formula of derivative of a composite functions or a chain rule:
          $$
          f = y(x)^2, qquadfrac{df}{dx}=frac{d(y^2)}{dx},\
          f=g(y(x)),qquad g(y)=y^2,\
          frac{d}{dx}g(y(x))=frac{dg(y(x))}{dy}frac{dy(x)}{dx}=(2y(x))frac{dy}{dx}
          $$







          share|cite|improve this answer












          share|cite|improve this answer



          share|cite|improve this answer










          answered 13 hours ago









          Vasily Mitch

          99817




          99817






















              up vote
              2
              down vote













              The derivative of $y^2$ with respect to $y$ is $2y$ because of the definition of derivative:
              $$lim_{h to 0} frac{(y+h)^2-y^2}{h} = 2y.$$



              In the last expression you write
              $$frac{d(x^2)}{dx} = frac{d(x^2)}{dy}frac{dy}{dx}$$
              but this is meaningful only when $x$ is a function of $y$. So assume $x = f(y)$. Then, by the first equation you mention in the question, the right hand side is
              $$frac{d(f^2)}{dy}frac{dy}{dx} = 2f(y)f'(y)frac{dy}{dx} = 2xf'(y)frac{dy}{dx} = 2xfrac{dx}{dy}frac{dy}{dx} = 2xfrac{dx}{dx} = 2x.$$






              share|cite|improve this answer

























                up vote
                2
                down vote













                The derivative of $y^2$ with respect to $y$ is $2y$ because of the definition of derivative:
                $$lim_{h to 0} frac{(y+h)^2-y^2}{h} = 2y.$$



                In the last expression you write
                $$frac{d(x^2)}{dx} = frac{d(x^2)}{dy}frac{dy}{dx}$$
                but this is meaningful only when $x$ is a function of $y$. So assume $x = f(y)$. Then, by the first equation you mention in the question, the right hand side is
                $$frac{d(f^2)}{dy}frac{dy}{dx} = 2f(y)f'(y)frac{dy}{dx} = 2xf'(y)frac{dy}{dx} = 2xfrac{dx}{dy}frac{dy}{dx} = 2xfrac{dx}{dx} = 2x.$$






                share|cite|improve this answer























                  up vote
                  2
                  down vote










                  up vote
                  2
                  down vote









                  The derivative of $y^2$ with respect to $y$ is $2y$ because of the definition of derivative:
                  $$lim_{h to 0} frac{(y+h)^2-y^2}{h} = 2y.$$



                  In the last expression you write
                  $$frac{d(x^2)}{dx} = frac{d(x^2)}{dy}frac{dy}{dx}$$
                  but this is meaningful only when $x$ is a function of $y$. So assume $x = f(y)$. Then, by the first equation you mention in the question, the right hand side is
                  $$frac{d(f^2)}{dy}frac{dy}{dx} = 2f(y)f'(y)frac{dy}{dx} = 2xf'(y)frac{dy}{dx} = 2xfrac{dx}{dy}frac{dy}{dx} = 2xfrac{dx}{dx} = 2x.$$






                  share|cite|improve this answer












                  The derivative of $y^2$ with respect to $y$ is $2y$ because of the definition of derivative:
                  $$lim_{h to 0} frac{(y+h)^2-y^2}{h} = 2y.$$



                  In the last expression you write
                  $$frac{d(x^2)}{dx} = frac{d(x^2)}{dy}frac{dy}{dx}$$
                  but this is meaningful only when $x$ is a function of $y$. So assume $x = f(y)$. Then, by the first equation you mention in the question, the right hand side is
                  $$frac{d(f^2)}{dy}frac{dy}{dx} = 2f(y)f'(y)frac{dy}{dx} = 2xf'(y)frac{dy}{dx} = 2xfrac{dx}{dy}frac{dy}{dx} = 2xfrac{dx}{dx} = 2x.$$







                  share|cite|improve this answer












                  share|cite|improve this answer



                  share|cite|improve this answer










                  answered 13 hours ago









                  Gibbs

                  4,6922726




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