Why are piston engines so unreliable in airliners?












2














Before the first jetliners appeared, all airliners used piston (reciprocating) engines, which were astoundingly prone to failing in flight, to the point where an inflight engine failure was an everyday, expected occurrence. To quote Wikipedia:




Engine failures were considered fairly routine events on piston-engined airliners in the 1940s, so the crew elected to continue the flight to Dallas, and Captain Claude announced to the passengers that they would switch to another airplane upon arrival.




In contrast, in-flight failures of modern turbofan engines are so rare that most pilots will go their entire careers without ever encountering one. Even in the 1950s, jets were already more reliable than piston engines, which was one of the reasons they quickly seized centre stage for long-distance operations. For low-altitude short-haul flights, where jets are inefficient compared to propellers, airliners still switched away from piston engines, moving to turboprops en masse despite piston engines having better fuel efficiency than turboprops. All of this is despite turbine engines placing far greater thermal and mechanical stresses on their components than any piston engine.



Nowadays, piston engines are generally used only on very small general-aviation airplanes... and are no less reliable than the turboprops and jets on larger aircraft.



What is it about piston engines that makes them so unreliable on large aircraft, yet extremely reliable on small aircraft?










share|improve this question




















  • 1




    There are A LOT of moving parts in a two-row radial engine (R-1830). Some of the bigger engines had up to four rows (R-4360) but not many, if any, popular passenger planes used the biggest engines. With more moving parts, more opportunity for metal-on-metal wear, and the general complexity of the valves/turbos/carbs...there was a lot to go wrong. A turbine has fewer moving parts and creates MUCH more power for its weight. The monster -4360 made 4,300hp and weighed 3,800lbs dry. The Allison T56 makes roughly the same power and weighs less than 2,000lbs dry with fewer moving parts.
    – acpilot
    3 hours ago








  • 1




    Plus any more than two rows of cylinders was extremely difficult to cool properly, which was the main reason for the problems with 3 and 4 row engines.
    – John K
    2 hours ago
















2














Before the first jetliners appeared, all airliners used piston (reciprocating) engines, which were astoundingly prone to failing in flight, to the point where an inflight engine failure was an everyday, expected occurrence. To quote Wikipedia:




Engine failures were considered fairly routine events on piston-engined airliners in the 1940s, so the crew elected to continue the flight to Dallas, and Captain Claude announced to the passengers that they would switch to another airplane upon arrival.




In contrast, in-flight failures of modern turbofan engines are so rare that most pilots will go their entire careers without ever encountering one. Even in the 1950s, jets were already more reliable than piston engines, which was one of the reasons they quickly seized centre stage for long-distance operations. For low-altitude short-haul flights, where jets are inefficient compared to propellers, airliners still switched away from piston engines, moving to turboprops en masse despite piston engines having better fuel efficiency than turboprops. All of this is despite turbine engines placing far greater thermal and mechanical stresses on their components than any piston engine.



Nowadays, piston engines are generally used only on very small general-aviation airplanes... and are no less reliable than the turboprops and jets on larger aircraft.



What is it about piston engines that makes them so unreliable on large aircraft, yet extremely reliable on small aircraft?










share|improve this question




















  • 1




    There are A LOT of moving parts in a two-row radial engine (R-1830). Some of the bigger engines had up to four rows (R-4360) but not many, if any, popular passenger planes used the biggest engines. With more moving parts, more opportunity for metal-on-metal wear, and the general complexity of the valves/turbos/carbs...there was a lot to go wrong. A turbine has fewer moving parts and creates MUCH more power for its weight. The monster -4360 made 4,300hp and weighed 3,800lbs dry. The Allison T56 makes roughly the same power and weighs less than 2,000lbs dry with fewer moving parts.
    – acpilot
    3 hours ago








  • 1




    Plus any more than two rows of cylinders was extremely difficult to cool properly, which was the main reason for the problems with 3 and 4 row engines.
    – John K
    2 hours ago














2












2








2







Before the first jetliners appeared, all airliners used piston (reciprocating) engines, which were astoundingly prone to failing in flight, to the point where an inflight engine failure was an everyday, expected occurrence. To quote Wikipedia:




Engine failures were considered fairly routine events on piston-engined airliners in the 1940s, so the crew elected to continue the flight to Dallas, and Captain Claude announced to the passengers that they would switch to another airplane upon arrival.




In contrast, in-flight failures of modern turbofan engines are so rare that most pilots will go their entire careers without ever encountering one. Even in the 1950s, jets were already more reliable than piston engines, which was one of the reasons they quickly seized centre stage for long-distance operations. For low-altitude short-haul flights, where jets are inefficient compared to propellers, airliners still switched away from piston engines, moving to turboprops en masse despite piston engines having better fuel efficiency than turboprops. All of this is despite turbine engines placing far greater thermal and mechanical stresses on their components than any piston engine.



Nowadays, piston engines are generally used only on very small general-aviation airplanes... and are no less reliable than the turboprops and jets on larger aircraft.



What is it about piston engines that makes them so unreliable on large aircraft, yet extremely reliable on small aircraft?










share|improve this question















Before the first jetliners appeared, all airliners used piston (reciprocating) engines, which were astoundingly prone to failing in flight, to the point where an inflight engine failure was an everyday, expected occurrence. To quote Wikipedia:




Engine failures were considered fairly routine events on piston-engined airliners in the 1940s, so the crew elected to continue the flight to Dallas, and Captain Claude announced to the passengers that they would switch to another airplane upon arrival.




In contrast, in-flight failures of modern turbofan engines are so rare that most pilots will go their entire careers without ever encountering one. Even in the 1950s, jets were already more reliable than piston engines, which was one of the reasons they quickly seized centre stage for long-distance operations. For low-altitude short-haul flights, where jets are inefficient compared to propellers, airliners still switched away from piston engines, moving to turboprops en masse despite piston engines having better fuel efficiency than turboprops. All of this is despite turbine engines placing far greater thermal and mechanical stresses on their components than any piston engine.



Nowadays, piston engines are generally used only on very small general-aviation airplanes... and are no less reliable than the turboprops and jets on larger aircraft.



What is it about piston engines that makes them so unreliable on large aircraft, yet extremely reliable on small aircraft?







piston-engine reliability






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 10 mins ago

























asked 4 hours ago









Sean

3,32822054




3,32822054








  • 1




    There are A LOT of moving parts in a two-row radial engine (R-1830). Some of the bigger engines had up to four rows (R-4360) but not many, if any, popular passenger planes used the biggest engines. With more moving parts, more opportunity for metal-on-metal wear, and the general complexity of the valves/turbos/carbs...there was a lot to go wrong. A turbine has fewer moving parts and creates MUCH more power for its weight. The monster -4360 made 4,300hp and weighed 3,800lbs dry. The Allison T56 makes roughly the same power and weighs less than 2,000lbs dry with fewer moving parts.
    – acpilot
    3 hours ago








  • 1




    Plus any more than two rows of cylinders was extremely difficult to cool properly, which was the main reason for the problems with 3 and 4 row engines.
    – John K
    2 hours ago














  • 1




    There are A LOT of moving parts in a two-row radial engine (R-1830). Some of the bigger engines had up to four rows (R-4360) but not many, if any, popular passenger planes used the biggest engines. With more moving parts, more opportunity for metal-on-metal wear, and the general complexity of the valves/turbos/carbs...there was a lot to go wrong. A turbine has fewer moving parts and creates MUCH more power for its weight. The monster -4360 made 4,300hp and weighed 3,800lbs dry. The Allison T56 makes roughly the same power and weighs less than 2,000lbs dry with fewer moving parts.
    – acpilot
    3 hours ago








  • 1




    Plus any more than two rows of cylinders was extremely difficult to cool properly, which was the main reason for the problems with 3 and 4 row engines.
    – John K
    2 hours ago








1




1




There are A LOT of moving parts in a two-row radial engine (R-1830). Some of the bigger engines had up to four rows (R-4360) but not many, if any, popular passenger planes used the biggest engines. With more moving parts, more opportunity for metal-on-metal wear, and the general complexity of the valves/turbos/carbs...there was a lot to go wrong. A turbine has fewer moving parts and creates MUCH more power for its weight. The monster -4360 made 4,300hp and weighed 3,800lbs dry. The Allison T56 makes roughly the same power and weighs less than 2,000lbs dry with fewer moving parts.
– acpilot
3 hours ago






There are A LOT of moving parts in a two-row radial engine (R-1830). Some of the bigger engines had up to four rows (R-4360) but not many, if any, popular passenger planes used the biggest engines. With more moving parts, more opportunity for metal-on-metal wear, and the general complexity of the valves/turbos/carbs...there was a lot to go wrong. A turbine has fewer moving parts and creates MUCH more power for its weight. The monster -4360 made 4,300hp and weighed 3,800lbs dry. The Allison T56 makes roughly the same power and weighs less than 2,000lbs dry with fewer moving parts.
– acpilot
3 hours ago






1




1




Plus any more than two rows of cylinders was extremely difficult to cool properly, which was the main reason for the problems with 3 and 4 row engines.
– John K
2 hours ago




Plus any more than two rows of cylinders was extremely difficult to cool properly, which was the main reason for the problems with 3 and 4 row engines.
– John K
2 hours ago










1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes


















3














This statement is not entirely true. the R2800 engine was considered at the time to be quite reliable in comparison to the R3350 and the R4360. Those engines represented the evolutionary dead-end of big piston power, where pushing to more power began making the engines less reliable than their lower-power predecessors had been.



Part of this was simple statistics, where the probability of failure of a machine scales with the number of parts it contains. In crude terms this means doubling the number of pistons doubles the opportunity for something to go wrong with one of them in the engine. Note also that those extra pistons do not provide redundancy, in the sense that a failed piston will fill the oil system with broken metal, causing the other pistons to fail not long after, or start the engine on fire.



Turbine power plants provide more uptime and longer TBO's than the piston engines they replaced as well as more power for less engine weight. These attributes offset the greater replacement costs and higher fuel consumption in applications where uptime and power were required to enable a viable business model.



Cost-sensitive, low power applications still make use of pistons, with the breakpoint being around ~300HP. This is at least partly due to the fact that as turbines are scaled down in power output, their efficiency usually suffers, and their manufacturing costs do not fall fast enough to compete with pistons in the 250HP arena.






share|improve this answer





















  • One would think that the cascading-failure problem with big piston engines could easily be solved with a simple oil filter...
    – Sean
    12 mins ago











Your Answer





StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function () {
return StackExchange.using("mathjaxEditing", function () {
StackExchange.MarkdownEditor.creationCallbacks.add(function (editor, postfix) {
StackExchange.mathjaxEditing.prepareWmdForMathJax(editor, postfix, [["$", "$"], ["\\(","\\)"]]);
});
});
}, "mathjax-editing");

StackExchange.ready(function() {
var channelOptions = {
tags: "".split(" "),
id: "528"
};
initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
// Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
createEditor();
});
}
else {
createEditor();
}
});

function createEditor() {
StackExchange.prepareEditor({
heartbeatType: 'answer',
autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
convertImagesToLinks: false,
noModals: true,
showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
reputationToPostImages: null,
bindNavPrevention: true,
postfix: "",
imageUploader: {
brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
allowUrls: true
},
noCode: true, onDemand: true,
discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
});


}
});














draft saved

draft discarded


















StackExchange.ready(
function () {
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2faviation.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f58268%2fwhy-are-piston-engines-so-unreliable-in-airliners%23new-answer', 'question_page');
}
);

Post as a guest















Required, but never shown

























1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes








1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes









3














This statement is not entirely true. the R2800 engine was considered at the time to be quite reliable in comparison to the R3350 and the R4360. Those engines represented the evolutionary dead-end of big piston power, where pushing to more power began making the engines less reliable than their lower-power predecessors had been.



Part of this was simple statistics, where the probability of failure of a machine scales with the number of parts it contains. In crude terms this means doubling the number of pistons doubles the opportunity for something to go wrong with one of them in the engine. Note also that those extra pistons do not provide redundancy, in the sense that a failed piston will fill the oil system with broken metal, causing the other pistons to fail not long after, or start the engine on fire.



Turbine power plants provide more uptime and longer TBO's than the piston engines they replaced as well as more power for less engine weight. These attributes offset the greater replacement costs and higher fuel consumption in applications where uptime and power were required to enable a viable business model.



Cost-sensitive, low power applications still make use of pistons, with the breakpoint being around ~300HP. This is at least partly due to the fact that as turbines are scaled down in power output, their efficiency usually suffers, and their manufacturing costs do not fall fast enough to compete with pistons in the 250HP arena.






share|improve this answer





















  • One would think that the cascading-failure problem with big piston engines could easily be solved with a simple oil filter...
    – Sean
    12 mins ago
















3














This statement is not entirely true. the R2800 engine was considered at the time to be quite reliable in comparison to the R3350 and the R4360. Those engines represented the evolutionary dead-end of big piston power, where pushing to more power began making the engines less reliable than their lower-power predecessors had been.



Part of this was simple statistics, where the probability of failure of a machine scales with the number of parts it contains. In crude terms this means doubling the number of pistons doubles the opportunity for something to go wrong with one of them in the engine. Note also that those extra pistons do not provide redundancy, in the sense that a failed piston will fill the oil system with broken metal, causing the other pistons to fail not long after, or start the engine on fire.



Turbine power plants provide more uptime and longer TBO's than the piston engines they replaced as well as more power for less engine weight. These attributes offset the greater replacement costs and higher fuel consumption in applications where uptime and power were required to enable a viable business model.



Cost-sensitive, low power applications still make use of pistons, with the breakpoint being around ~300HP. This is at least partly due to the fact that as turbines are scaled down in power output, their efficiency usually suffers, and their manufacturing costs do not fall fast enough to compete with pistons in the 250HP arena.






share|improve this answer





















  • One would think that the cascading-failure problem with big piston engines could easily be solved with a simple oil filter...
    – Sean
    12 mins ago














3












3








3






This statement is not entirely true. the R2800 engine was considered at the time to be quite reliable in comparison to the R3350 and the R4360. Those engines represented the evolutionary dead-end of big piston power, where pushing to more power began making the engines less reliable than their lower-power predecessors had been.



Part of this was simple statistics, where the probability of failure of a machine scales with the number of parts it contains. In crude terms this means doubling the number of pistons doubles the opportunity for something to go wrong with one of them in the engine. Note also that those extra pistons do not provide redundancy, in the sense that a failed piston will fill the oil system with broken metal, causing the other pistons to fail not long after, or start the engine on fire.



Turbine power plants provide more uptime and longer TBO's than the piston engines they replaced as well as more power for less engine weight. These attributes offset the greater replacement costs and higher fuel consumption in applications where uptime and power were required to enable a viable business model.



Cost-sensitive, low power applications still make use of pistons, with the breakpoint being around ~300HP. This is at least partly due to the fact that as turbines are scaled down in power output, their efficiency usually suffers, and their manufacturing costs do not fall fast enough to compete with pistons in the 250HP arena.






share|improve this answer












This statement is not entirely true. the R2800 engine was considered at the time to be quite reliable in comparison to the R3350 and the R4360. Those engines represented the evolutionary dead-end of big piston power, where pushing to more power began making the engines less reliable than their lower-power predecessors had been.



Part of this was simple statistics, where the probability of failure of a machine scales with the number of parts it contains. In crude terms this means doubling the number of pistons doubles the opportunity for something to go wrong with one of them in the engine. Note also that those extra pistons do not provide redundancy, in the sense that a failed piston will fill the oil system with broken metal, causing the other pistons to fail not long after, or start the engine on fire.



Turbine power plants provide more uptime and longer TBO's than the piston engines they replaced as well as more power for less engine weight. These attributes offset the greater replacement costs and higher fuel consumption in applications where uptime and power were required to enable a viable business model.



Cost-sensitive, low power applications still make use of pistons, with the breakpoint being around ~300HP. This is at least partly due to the fact that as turbines are scaled down in power output, their efficiency usually suffers, and their manufacturing costs do not fall fast enough to compete with pistons in the 250HP arena.







share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered 3 hours ago









niels nielsen

1,8291514




1,8291514












  • One would think that the cascading-failure problem with big piston engines could easily be solved with a simple oil filter...
    – Sean
    12 mins ago


















  • One would think that the cascading-failure problem with big piston engines could easily be solved with a simple oil filter...
    – Sean
    12 mins ago
















One would think that the cascading-failure problem with big piston engines could easily be solved with a simple oil filter...
– Sean
12 mins ago




One would think that the cascading-failure problem with big piston engines could easily be solved with a simple oil filter...
– Sean
12 mins ago


















draft saved

draft discarded




















































Thanks for contributing an answer to Aviation Stack Exchange!


  • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

But avoid



  • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

  • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.


Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.


To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.





Some of your past answers have not been well-received, and you're in danger of being blocked from answering.


Please pay close attention to the following guidance:


  • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

But avoid



  • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

  • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.


To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




draft saved


draft discarded














StackExchange.ready(
function () {
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2faviation.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f58268%2fwhy-are-piston-engines-so-unreliable-in-airliners%23new-answer', 'question_page');
}
);

Post as a guest















Required, but never shown





















































Required, but never shown














Required, but never shown












Required, but never shown







Required, but never shown

































Required, but never shown














Required, but never shown












Required, but never shown







Required, but never shown







Popular posts from this blog

サソリ

広島県道265号伴広島線

Setup Asymptote in Texstudio